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Wimbledon, North Dakota

how far do roots travel strait down. if i bury drain tile pipe how deep can i put it? and do i keep it full of water? or do roots stay close to surface.

2/28/2005 8:46:08 AM

Hilpoltstein, Bavaria, Germany

I found that most roots are within the first foot of soil. others will say that roots travel down as much as two feet or more but if at all these are only a few of the stronger ones. but the fine roots are the ones that the plants benefits from most and these are usually in the first foot or even only in the first 6 inches.

Martin

2/28/2005 10:27:35 AM

Montoursville, PA

My thinking is that if roots go much deeper than a foot or so they are being encouraged to go there by the pit growing technique. The natural feeder roots of most garden plants are within the first six to ten inches. Drainage should go below any plowing or tilling debth. The trenches will serve.

I would still continue to add much manures, minerals and leaves to raise the bed and improve the top ten inches. 10% to 15% humus or organic content seems to be the excellent range that gets discussed here although a few have higher percentages.

2/28/2005 11:34:13 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Of course an awful lot depends on soil structure & aeration. But here is an interesting link to guide you.

http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010137veg.roots/010137ch33.html

2/28/2005 1:44:36 PM

Midway City, California

Tremor Very intresting reading I put it in my Favorites for future reading Thanks for the info
Water

2/28/2005 6:17:17 PM

Montoursville, PA

Boy...I sure am glad I was not one of the poor undergrads that aledgedly did that study. The author would have us believe the poor plant was picked at and picked apart three times, in a single year, to create the so called facts reported. I think the article is a hoax as written. Perhaps written by someone who needed a paper, by a cetain date.
...The article got published. The credits are down and that is about all the good it represents along with the doubtfull actual study. Looks like an egg head projection to me. I do certainly and often suspect such learned statements as this as complete educated fabrications.

2/28/2005 7:16:02 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Yep....must be a farce.

http://www.vegedge.umn.edu/mnvegnew/vol2/Pum0519.htm

2/28/2005 7:24:08 PM

Wimbledon, North Dakota

thanks for the input

2/28/2005 7:34:31 PM

Midway City, California

Doc and Other douters What information do you have that can say that the information is a Farce? I have seen some of these results in my own patches. WATER

2/28/2005 8:00:34 PM

Montoursville, PA

Amazing! Just as I had guessed! The whole bunch of them never got their fingers dirty. Certainly not picking apart the soil for seven feet down and oodles of feet accross and around to prove nothing but a very questionable study.
....I wasn't born yesterday. Please understand I distrust such learned statements untill proven otherwise. It has been proven many times over that the paper in a learned study will hold still for anything.

I figured to draw fire on these coments. That's OK

2/28/2005 8:09:53 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

I am a college educated & State sertified arborist who crossed the counter.

It is said that trees don't die of old age but rather in time, outgrow their available environment.

The most common cause of death in the urban & suburban setting for trees is related to root destruction usually caused by limitted space & compaction. 99% of homeowners do not desire & indeed would not tolerate having the spongey forest floor just outside their front door. But they still want a nice shade tree there.

One of my customers is the F. A. Bartlett Tree Expert Co founded here in CT in 1907. They were instrumental in helping to develope a new tool for arborists called the "air spade". It involves using pneumatic pressure to remove soil from trees growing in compacted conditions to foster replacement with better (and looser) soil that will resist compacting. Like the Bonsai artist who is constantly renewing his tree's potted roots & soil, we seek to do the same thing in the front lawns of the urban pot bound desiuos shade trees that we force to grow out of their natural setting.


When "air spading" about three quarters of all the fine feeder roots are lost to the pressurized air blown soil particles as they blow off the tangled roots. That said, when a tall tree has been completelt excavated & all the soil removed (experiments & moves only) the mass still appears equal to the canopy & scaffolding branches.

Most higher plants have root systems that are equal or greater in mass to the above ground foliage & branches we can see. Ripping a plant (an kind) from even the loosest best tilth soil will leave most of the roots in the ground. And these roots that are left behind are way too fine to see with the naked eye even if they could be removed without tearing.

Even theough we can't see them, they're there all the same. Faith is a lot like that too.

2/28/2005 8:44:32 PM

Montoursville, PA

Now let me see how this all relates to the original first question. I'll have to study on it, for awhile, so that I do not write any additional unrelated comments which may set of another series of unrelated comments by myself or others.

On final notice I do believe Martin and I gave the question fair answer. Hopefully all this other baloney won't confuse the answers, to the original question.

2/28/2005 11:40:04 PM

On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

Pumpkin roots stay fairly close to the surface, at least in my garden. The roots on the vines are rarely seen to go below 6 inches down. At the base of the plant they seem to go down about 6 inches and then grow laterally. My good soil (topsoil)is about 8 inches deep and I have tended to dig deeper at the base of the plant before I plant. For drainage pipes, they need to go down so that their tops are below the level you till at. Don't forget that the lines will have to be dug down about 6 inces below the bottom of the pipe so you can put gravel in. Then you lay the pipe which is probably 6 inches wide and then you need to have the top of that pipe down about 10 inches so that you can cover it with straw or whatever. So, you line holes will have to be down about 24 inches considering the need for gravel, pipes etc. Then comes the gravel, then the pipes, then the sraw and then you soil. Good luck. This is hard work if done by hand. I did it several years ago and it is still working. Don't forget to put your pipes in with the holes down.

3/1/2005 7:34:19 PM

Ohio

why do some people say leave the holes up and some say leave them down? Lub, whats the therory on both? I can see how it could drain water both ways up or down. I asked this question to the guys at work because my basement was leaking in one corner a little when it would pour down rain and I got a 50-50 answer on put holes up and put holes down. So what i did was dig about 3 foot down and layed plastic up along the wall and under the 10 foot peice of pipe with the holes up filled it with gravel and I havnt had a leak since.

3/2/2005 5:07:12 PM

Montoursville, PA

Brooks we may have a regional thing here. The only sewer and drain perforated pipe I have ever sold or used since the advent of plastic pipe has had four holes so your question here is just get it, in the ground. I was selling plumbing supplies at the time plastic pipe was being introduced in this area. That's been a day or two ago. :)

It comes in plastic schedule 40, 30 and flexible coils of an even lighter shedule the number, of which, I have forgotten. Four inch is the common usage size. There would likely be no reason to use heavier than the coiled flexible in a pumpkin patch unless you were commercial or using heavy equipment over the installation.

To give some idea without engineering data we put schedule 40 four inch under our driveway parking area. We ran the much less expensive flexible coiled sewer and drain down the side, of the .3 mile road, where we would not be driving over it.

Water will take it's own level. Permitting it to enter from the bottom saves some pressure on the line that would build up if it were forced to build up inches to enter at the top. There would be no drainage below the top holes if only one hole were in your pipe.

Four holes in sewer and drain is the best. Water can enter anywhere and there is lots of ventilation to permit free flow even if the trench is flooded above the pipe.

The use of straw, to filter the down flow, has mostly been replaced with synthetic cloth that covers the pipe serving the same purpose. Synthetic cloth is not something the biology will breakdown and consume. There is a cost difference but the synthetic remains, in place, literally forever.

3/2/2005 6:52:10 PM

On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

I think the holes go on the bottow because for the kind of a drain we are talking about if the pipe is sitting on gravel and the holes are on the bottom it will be less likely for the pipe to get filled with dirt etc. If the holes were on the top then dirt etc could get in. Also the water level does not have to be as high to get in the bottom as in the top. I am no engineer but the hole on the bottom does make common sense for several reasons as outlined above.

3/3/2005 12:30:05 PM

Indiana

Ok its my understanding that roots need oxygen to survive. the farther you go down into the soil the less oxygen there is. So why would roots go down 6 foot or more if they cant survive?? This may be unscientific but it makes since to me.
Steve

3/5/2005 10:08:55 AM

Paradise Mountain, New York

I talked to a guy who has put septic system in for years about doing my patch. He says you put the holes on the sides. This way the pipe is always flowing water away.He says to never ever put the holes so there on the top and bottom.

3/5/2005 10:59:42 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

There is some oxygen at all levels of soils. Even heavy soils have some oxygen in them.

The holes in pipes are oriented down or sideways depending on the intended use. Aimed up they fill with soil.

My neighbors clay sewer line is cracked. The crack fills with roots. Her soil is sandy clay 4% OM. The pipe is 24 inches in the ground. Why would tree roots be 24" deep in weit clay? H2O - hydrogen dioxide is 2 parts Oxygen.

Water roots can drill through hardpan to find water. Fine feeder roots stay in the upper strata.

AG roots go as deep as conditions require.

3/5/2005 1:45:26 PM

Montoursville, PA

I made a few phone calls in this area. The report is that all sewer and drain pipe now on this market has four holes in it. Just get in the trench is the only objective.

There are several grades of filtering covers that may be placed on top of the pipe before back filling.

Contractors only use straw when engineered specks call for it and then only when the site inspector or property owner demands straw. Straw filtering is no longer a common code item. My father, general contactor, stopped using straw in the 1960's.

3/5/2005 4:31:04 PM

Oz

Im using no hole corrigated drain pipe connected to the roof drains. good stuff,it connects to a serpentine slotted flex pipe.
I did find that it holds water and the rats love to go into it to drink.I had to put hardware cloth over the ends.

3/11/2005 5:38:13 PM