Message Board - BigPumpkins.com

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

In my area of SE Idaho, we have a soil with high pH that is
refered to as "calcareous". That is, it has a high amount
of lime in the soil. From all I've read, normal methods of
adding sulfur do not benefit this type of soil. The lime in
the soil turns the sulfur into gypsum, and no decrease in
pH occurs. Extremely high rates of sulfur are needed, but
then the addition of that much sulfur is thought to be
detrimental for other reasons.

Anyway, I'm looking for other growers who have
this type of soil.

There are a million questions, things to research...

If you have, or think you have, this type of soil, please
check-in.

9/14/2005 5:03:33 PM

HotPumpkin (Ben)

Phoenix, AZ

I am familiar with what you talk about. I have very high amounts of natual lime in my soil. This was tested by a lab as well as being confirmed by me when you add acid to my soil, it bubbles like a volcano.

What I did was add about 2-1/2 lb of sulfur per 100 sf. My PH went from 7.4 to 6.9 based upon last test but will test again in a few months before I plant in Feb.

Sulfur is consumed by microbes and turned into sulfuric acid. The sulfuric acid reacts with calcium carbonate (lime) making calcium sulfate, carbon dioxide and water. Hydrogen is what lowers PH. The Hydrogen atom will pair up with a hydroxide molecule (OH-) and make water. OH- is what raises PH.

Check out the link: http://www.coopext.colostate.edu/TRA/PLANTS/index.html#http://www.colostate.edu/Depts/CoopExt/TRA/PLANTS/alksoil.html

9/14/2005 9:07:02 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Well, everything I've read shows that there is no excess H
in this reaction... pH remains the same while there is an
increase in the "salt" gypsym (calcium sulfate). But,
something worked for you!

I'll look at your links, and send you some of my own. This is
exactly what I wanted to get started.

9/15/2005 9:54:10 AM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

OK, your link you posted... ha ha, the first time I saw this,
it was exactly word-for-word the same except that someone
had substituted "Idaho" for "Colorado". But it's one of many
that I have that infer that sulfur won't help unless your
soil is only slightly calcareous.

Did you get a percentage on the lime in your soil? I need to
get a new soil test.

9/15/2005 10:23:06 AM

HotPumpkin (Ben)

Phoenix, AZ

I specifically asked for an amount of lime in my soil but they don't do that. They just check for fizzing and compared to most, I fizz a lot.

From what you have read, there is nothing that can bring down the PH once it is high and of course this is not true. Something has to be able to bring it down. For me, sulfur worked as well as adding lots of OM. OM's microbes will also make a weak acid called carbonic acid. This also helps reduce the PH.

9/15/2005 4:15:03 PM

Utah

Cliff,
I must have missed this thread last week. I agree with Ben, I have reduced my pH from 7.8 to 6.8 from 2002 to 2004. Mainly by adding OM (horse manure) and some sulfur. We are creating our own little area of different soil in our patches. I think the article is talking about larger scale farms or orchards that many acres.
gordon

9/19/2005 9:56:48 AM

Montoursville, PA

I agree with Gordon. There is much we can do on a small scale that larger acreages can not consider, to the degree, that we might cause adjustment, in a small plot.

9/19/2005 10:54:20 AM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Let's keep this thread going, or at least I'll gather names
of all interested parties.

I hear ya' about the sulfur. It seems to work when the
academic approach says otherwise. If we put on as much sulfur
as they say we need, we'd be ankle deep in sulfur.

I have other questions that I want to explore over this
winter, for example:

1. Our soil is naturally rich in phosphorus, but is it not
"tied up", in an unusable form? Do we need to fertilize
with phosphorus anyway? What will this mean, long term for
our soils?

2. Take the above and substitute calcium in the questions.
I want to know if I should be using chelated calcium, if
that will help the fruit, and if there would be any negative
effects on my soil.

3. What about products like ironite? They say it's good
for our soils, but you really have to "read between the
lines" on products like this.

That's just a beginning...

9/21/2005 11:41:07 AM

Engel's Great Pumpkins and Carvings

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

To add about calcium... even though I should have plenty of
it, my garden shows signs that there isn't enough. For
example, blossom end rot in tomatoes. Also my pumpkins tend
to be thinner in the blossom end... anyway, I want to try
chelated calcium, but my only question is, "What will that
do to soils like ours? Send the pH into the stratosphere?"
Or does it not matter...

9/21/2005 11:51:55 AM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

I think what you need is lots of organic matter. Possibly even making a huge raised bed.

9/21/2005 11:54:32 AM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

I agree with that comment on organic matter. That's what I
try to do... it sure tends to disappear in a hurry though.

One of my strategies is to amend the entire patch with peat
moss next year. The peat moss does seem to last longer.

Looking for a holistic approach... but large amounts of
organic matter is certainly part of the plan.

Thanks, Cliff

9/21/2005 12:01:24 PM

Montoursville, PA

The monthly newsleter called E-Zine from the Soil Food Network, Inc. has valuable and good reference, to what is being discussed here. If any reader is interested send me an E and I will forward the newsleter in it's full form.

While I do not know the soil, of which is the subject of discussion I do know some simple basics.

One simple basic is that the biology, of any soil, can be made better, by the application, of simple manures, remineralization, quality finished compost and aerobic teas.

Another simple fact is that synthetic fertilizers, poison insecticides and fungicides kill the biological players.

Those, of us, who still think that intergrated fertilization is a must are simply hanging onto what we have heard so much of, since about 1940. Most, of what we have heard is pure money talking...the money, of the chemical industry. That money also funds most academic studies so what would you expect the results, to indicate? What would you expect those trained and employed withing the huge chemistry money machine, to profess.

9/21/2005 1:20:51 PM

Montoursville, PA

When Dan Carlson was interviewed he reported that his success was entirely the result of using manures and remineralization. He also reported the use of some insecticides and fungicides. One can not be organic doing this although he is moving, in the right direction. To me he simply built such a strong biological base that the damage from his cides did not nuke out his biological strength below that needed, by an American Giant Pumpkin.

There are others moving, in this direction, that have been able, to produce, from a sustainable biological base. The one I know well is Jerry Checkon and his wife Jerry. They operate and manage, from a very strong living biological base usine very minimal cides. They have produced, within a sustainable management basis, in the same patches, for many years. Perhaps their biology is so strong that the minimal use, of the cides, can be handled.

The biological building does not relate, to scientific pill bottle management, although one must be generally aware, of testing, for possilbe excesses, humis content and PH.

Once there is perhaps 5% - 10% humus in the soil all, of the needs, of nearly any plant are sure enough there. The only thing that can make those elements available, to the plant...even using less water, is the biological content being maintained at high living levels. Dumping large amounts, of anything, in an effort, to correct any specific need is not the answer. Building and maintaining the biological ballance is the only answer...that will hold up long term. So count your worms. If you increase your worm population you have, to be, improving the biological ballances. You don't need a microscope or any special level, of education, to count your worms.

9/21/2005 1:44:38 PM

Montoursville, PA

One of the very important facts is that a cover crop placed early, in the fall is a major improvement. Preeceeding the cover crop is the time to ammend and build, with the basics.
The basics are manures, leaves, compost, remineralization and PH adjustments.

Looking into the use, of aerobic tea, as clearly shown and discussed, on the North Country Organics web site, is well worth anyone's time. This could be considered one, of the finest basic elements leading, to a healthy patch.

It just flat out does not make any sense what so ever, to build the biology up and consistantly knock it down, with negative ammendments. We may need, to do a bit, of pushing and pulling, as we learn, to manage a heathy patch. It goes without saying that a poison placed, in the ground, most likely is far worse, than attacking with contact cides, on the leaves. Example the cuke beetle. They go down easily with contact cides and little need enter the soil, due to spraying process.

9/21/2005 2:08:33 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Doc!

In fact I do know about the Soil Food Web, and in general
subscribe to their principles. I didn't know they had a
monthly newsletter, however. I would be interested.

I am in fact "paranoid" that chemical amendments will damage
my soil. My salts (ece) are 6.3. (Horrid.) My soil is a
clayey swamp when wet.

Lots of organic matter, and learning to do a proper aerobic
tea are part of my goals. One question might be... Will
organic matter and teas get me to where I need to be
as far as calcium goes? I realize we probably can't answer
that here... but do these amendments provide any Calcium?
That might be one question.

"Soil structure" is something I really need to improve.
By the end of the year, it's like walking on concrete.

Lets keep the discussion going! Thanks.

9/21/2005 3:09:50 PM

Papa Bill

Antigonish,Nova Scotia,Canada

I like what I'm hearing from Doc. I am brand new at this AG game but decided a long time ago to proceed as "green" as possible. I've made several mistakes this season but will still wind up with two 200lbs+ pumpkins that were grown essentially in the middle of my small vegetable garden and "boosted" by nothing more than good compost,various scavenged manures and lots of TLC.(...even chasing and catching cucumber beetles by hand)......(one of the joys of early retirement,I guess!...LOL )....The experiment was so successful and I've met such interesting and good folk along the way that I cannot wait for next year.Yes my AG's will have a patch of their own but they will still be grown as organically as possible!....good stuff here....am looking foward to other comments!.... thanks and cheers for now, Bill

9/21/2005 4:02:13 PM

Utah

Cliff
if you are worried about Ca then you can always add gypsum, which is calcium sulfate.... double bang for you buck ... adds Ca ... lowers pH.

9/21/2005 4:33:18 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Cliff,

1. Our soil is naturally rich in phosphorus, but is it not
"tied up", in an unusable form? Do we need to fertilize
with phosphorus anyway?

To avoid the lock-up issue you can plant a crop of Buckwheat, "is effective at extracting phosphorus from the soil - used by organic farmers for this purpose".

http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/crops/facts/cover_crops01/buckwheat.htm

2. Take the above and substitute calcium in the questions.

"One of the restrictions is the fact that only newly expanding unsuberized root caps can absorb calcium. Any environmental factor that limits root expansion limits the uptake of calcium predisposing plants to physiological disorders". In short keep your plants young by reducing all types of inorganic supplements while at the same time ensuring adequate soil moisture levels will help to increase the uptake of calcium.

http://www.agtest.com/

9/21/2005 4:33:22 PM

Utah

... opps i was going to address your other questions also.

I know my soil is high in phosphorus. It is way off the charts ... the lab guy called me to tell me so. I don't know if it is tied up or not. but I still add some 16-16-16 every year.
Ca ... My soil is clay based (started out 3 years ago as heavy clay) and is fairly high in calcium. I've added lots of OM ... and the Ca has come down ... but I think there is still enough in there. .... see above post ... add gypsum... I don't think adding chelated Calcium to your soil would hurt at all... especially if you are also adding tons and tons of OM.
Ironite.... azomite ... I've added some of these to my soil. I figure it helps ... and I think it is hard to add to much (ie it doesn't hurt to add some)... especially if you are also adding tons and tons of OM.
build it up !
gordon

9/21/2005 4:45:34 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

I tried a cover crop last year... a "no-go" in our area.
Basically, the ground is frozen December to March. I think
it might work in a mild winter and if I can get it started
soon enough. The last three winters have been super cold,
so maybe we're due for a mild one.

I spent $35 on a "cold winter" mix... nothing grew. Hmmm...
must be doing something wrong...

9/21/2005 4:59:16 PM

Montoursville, PA

If you apply two to four inches of animal manure three years in a row you will have a soil test that will be high, to very high, in all instances. Run a cover crop every year and use Ironite, Azomite from Fertrell and or Greensand you will answer the call for remineralization. You only need twenty pounds of "one" (1) of the above per year. I use a mix of all three but only 20lbs per 1000 sq. ft. of patch. Supporting the manures should be a fairly large addition, of leaves tilled, in with the manure.

Tweaking up your biological strengths will make the proven content, of that building program.

After three years maybe drop back to less of all additives.

9/21/2005 5:00:20 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Cliff, I have the same conditions here in central ON. Buckwheat can be sowed in the patch radius around your planting zones in the spring after last frost. It will grow quickly. Plow it down just ahead of vine growth Or hand pull it and use as a mulch between the vine rows.

9/21/2005 5:09:01 PM

Montoursville, PA

Plant winter rye, in the middle, of October. There will be much root and top growth before freeze up. It should perk right up very early after thaw in the spring. If not the root mass is still there, to increase your OM. Then run the buckwheat in the early spring tilling it under two weeks before the vine will reach into the next area. By the time your vine is out there fifteen feet or so you will have knee high buckwheat which is easy to till under.

9/21/2005 10:03:11 PM

CountyKid (PECPG)

Picton,ON (j.vincent@xplornet.ca)

I'm just wondering how big a pumpkin doc has grown?

9/21/2005 10:13:16 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Question: A question I've always had..... does calcium sulfate
equate to usable calcium by the plant? I think it does not...

I could be wrong, but it's like sodium chloride... which is
not at all like sodium or chloride.

9/21/2005 11:10:50 PM

Brian C.

Rexburg, Idaho (brianchristensenmd@gmail.com )

Cliff,
Not sure about the answer to your latest question. But I think that a significant portion is available for plant useage.
Back to your original question can pH be adjusted in Calcerous soils. The more I read I believe that it can not be done. I put on 2.6 pounds sulfer per 100 Square feet last fall. My soil is sandy and by others suggestions that should have brought my pH down well over one point. However my pH is essentially unchanged.

9/22/2005 12:18:20 AM

saxomaphone(Alan)

Taber, Alberta

I have the same problem. I'm trying to lower my ph, but it keeps bouncing up. One of my biggest problems is the water from the mountains. Both irrigation and town water is high in calcium carbonate. I was told by the lab that trying to lower my ph over the long term is probably a big waste of time. It is very dry here and irrigation is essential. I was told that my high ph probably saves my soil because my potassium and phospherous are extremely elevated, it blocks some of it from being absorbed. I was also told to back off on any type of manure or compost as it will probably turn my soil toxic. Sulfur was also banned for me by my lab.
I managed to get a cover crop of rye started a month ago, but only becuase my pumpkin blew in early August. Maybe this will help? Otherwise, growing cover crops here are almost useless.
Alan

9/22/2005 1:33:12 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Alan, This is getting a little off topic. The toughness you guys display annually out west would break an eastern gardeners heart. We don't understand the swings in temperature you have to battle in the summer. I live in a fairly cool winter zone 4b in Central ON, which sometimes can change in a warm winter to 5 or 6. The effects of weather extremes are muted some what by the Great Lakes in my region. Higher levels of rainfall and snow in early winter are a common event. This also tends to prolong springtime as the lakes are still cold from the winter. The same forces work to moderate summer's temperature extremes. The point I'm trying to make is weather maybe your biggest limiting factor.

I use town supplied well water that is 8 or higher. Pretty crappy for a growing AGP. I have had difficulty lowering my PH too. Caused mostly by rookie mistakes two years ago when I over applied Calcium Magnesium Sulfate(CMS) & Greensand. It is now just starting to come back to the 7 range. However, until I get off my wallet and build a proper storage system for rainwater or treatment of the town water, I may never be able to get a Larger fruit.

What zone do you live in? What is the PH of your water? What is your CEC & % levels?

You can do certain things that will provide benefits very quickly. The key as I see it is to provide as many Cation exchange sites in the soil as possible to mute the soils natural characteristics. This may be a never ending task for some of you guys out west. Adding OM will help raise CEC. The addition of Calcined clay(Profile) will have immediate and lasting effects for a generation. The use of Humic acid provides even more CEC holding potential too. Exploring any product that can hold nutrients will give you a leg up on the surrounding local conditions. Large quantities of Vermiculite or Azomite may be available options too.

9/22/2005 8:01:02 AM

Utah

In the fall of 2003 my pH was 7.8,
in the fall of 2004 is was 6.8
I added some sulfur ... and LOTS of OM.

9/22/2005 9:40:12 AM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Gordon, I wonder if you have truly calcareous (natively lime)
soil? If you don't, then adding the sulfur works...

Alan, I can see your lab telling you to lay off the sulfur
(based on what I know, which is limited...) but I have a
hard time with them saying to lay off compost! Also, composted
manure... Compost helps all soils in any condition (!?!)

9/22/2005 10:28:55 AM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

In my earlier post I made an analogy, sodium chloride is not
like sodium or "chloride". I should have said "chlorine".
At any rate, it's a totally different substance when it's
combined, unlike either of the parts. (Hey, I do remember a
little bit of college chemistry...) So, it's a question I
have, does the lime and gypsum that I have in my soil, do
the components of that feed the plant at all?

We out west have certain troubles. But we have a few
advantages. Sun all day every day (almost). No serious bugs
to speak of. It's just a matter of working with the soil
and the temperature swings, like you mention.

Thanks everyone for your posts. Hopefully this winter we can
continue and get some good "hot stove league" discussions
going. After I get through this next week or two, I need to
get an updated soil test.

9/22/2005 10:41:40 AM

Montoursville, PA

I have grown 710 estimated and lost in August the first year. My finished fruit that made the scales are all shown in my diary.

Coaching others is another story. This year our area has three growers doing well following my basic advise. Doing well as follows: Last year's first year grower grew an 845 and a 1019 last year. This year four over five hundred with two of them over 700. Stephanie a seventeen year old grower grew about 200 last year and has one well over 800 this year. Another new grower team, man and wife, are over 700. I am expecting a PB with two healthy fruit 500 lbs more or less.

....I have only room, to grow two and this is the fourth year, in the same patch. It may be time, to rest this patch, for a year or two. We shall see what the testing shows, in the area, of fungi difficulties.

9/22/2005 11:24:19 AM

saxomaphone(Alan)

Taber, Alberta

Russ, I'm in zone 3b. The joy of that is, most of the diseases in the soil are killed off. Powdery mildew, SVB and other problems like that are almost non existant here. Unfortunately, 2-3 degrees celcius can sometimes happen in late-July, early August and can screw things up royally. A foot of snow the last week of May, or second week in September have happened in the past 3 years. When it rains, it pours. 4 inches in 36 hours 2 weeks ago, and a foot of rain in 3 days 4 years ago. Otherwise, it's dry.
My ph in irrigation water goes between 8.5 and 9.1
Town water is more around 8 I would love to have the $$$ to enable to get a storage system to collect bulk rainwater, enough for my needs. Maybe I won 6/49 last week?
CEC? Hmm, let's see if I have this right >36 meg/100g
% are Ca <78% MG <15% Na <1.3% K >4.3%

My OM is ony 4.8, but two years ago it was 2.3% and I have been trying to get it up by putting both fresh and old manure, leaves, peat moss,and compost in. I have put in LOTS of manure for the past 2 falls (my neighbours hate me, my dog loves it)

Cliff, my phospherous is sitting at 493 ppm and my potassium at 1800 ppm. Sulfur is at 28.
Our soil is naturally high in phospherous and the lab said that the manures I was adding would make my p and k go even more through the roof than where they are. Compost would do the same thing. Also, he said gypsym should not be put in as it would make my soil very hard. I want to get the salts down on my farm patch, so I really want to put the gypsym in. Again, this was what I was told. I don't want to screw things up too much as I can't really change the location of my patches.
Thanks guys.
Alan

9/22/2005 1:11:55 PM

CountyKid (PECPG)

Picton,ON (j.vincent@xplornet.ca)

I have been following this post for the last few days with great interest. I also have a PH problem in a calcarious soil. My soil is clay and also becomes quite tight by september. I have a PH of 8, my calcium is 5600 ppm, my OM is 8% and my CEC is 33. I applyied composted manure last fall and raised my OM from 4 to 8%.This fall I plan to apply about 12 tons mushroom farm compost and 12 tons composted manure to about 4000 ft2.It has been recomended to me by A&L Labs to apply 40 lbs/ 1000 ft2 sulfur. Anyone have a comment? The A&L Agronomist says it should work. The target PH is 6.8 to 7.2.

9/22/2005 9:26:10 PM

saxomaphone(Alan)

Taber, Alberta

I put in 14 yards of mushroom compost last fall to the farm patch and it raised my from 3.9% to 4.7, and lowered my ph from 8.5 to 7.6, but it also raised my salts from 0.86 to 2.86 It also sent my boron levels up to 2.0 ppm and the lab is worried about that.

9/22/2005 9:45:50 PM

Montoursville, PA

One thing I have experienced with the word compost is that many forget or do not understand that it should be a two word statement, namely "finished compost". I just got a yard and a half, of mushroom compost. It is still decomposing at 115 degrees...therefore it is not finished compost. If I were, to put that into a cool fall application, the finishing will stop. It will lay there with little conversion until spring. If next spring is as cold as this past spring basically I still have manure not compost. If next spring should be a warm early spring everything would likely be just fine. If not there is a breeding ground, for the bad fungi. Another thing that would happen is that the conversion would not get cooking until the middle, of May, or even June. This sure messes up the original intent. If my mushroom compost does not cool with several turnings within a month from now I will not put it in this fall...I may not even, in the spring, depending, on the pile temperature which indicates the living biological conversion, to real compost, from the base, of manure.

My buddy and I made this error last fall....and even more so this spring. We got a miserable slow difficult start because, of this error. When it really started, to converge and give the nitrogen back we were trying, to polinate plants that were going a mile a minute. That was more difficulty. We both would have been better waiting until the piles cooled down, to sixty or seventy degrees. Said another way we should have waited until a turn, of the pile, did not reheat the pile. You need a therometer, to absolutely know, what is happening within your compost piles.

There are, to many advisements, that suggest you can do no wrong with the organic additions. This simply is not true.

9/22/2005 11:46:45 PM

CountyKid (PECPG)

Picton,ON (j.vincent@xplornet.ca)

My compost has been "resting " for about 3 yers and is cold. The manure is 10+ years old, I moved it last fall and it is also finnished. I am also concerned about salts, I have been looking at adding gypsom but the feeling seems to be that the gypsomwill have little effect in my high calcium soils. I am still looking at the sulfur though.
Comments please

9/23/2005 6:59:56 AM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

If you have a significant amount of lime in your soil, the
sulfur will eventually convert to gypsum (calcium sulfate).
No reduction in pH will occur if your soil is sufficiently
buffered with lime. The increase of gypsum alone is not
helpful.

Now, here is a kicker... they say to add gypsum to improve
heavy, salty soil. But gypsum itself is a salt! (I am
sooooo confused...) Or, are we really meaning sodium when
we say salt? If so, then what is the chemical reaction that
occurs involving Sodium and Gypsum?

9/23/2005 10:44:17 AM

Montoursville, PA

Building a nice strong biological ballance first is far more important than trying, to pill bottle a specific element specified, in a soil test. Doing nothing while continued application, of the basics is not bad advise.

Yet we all, including me, tend to get excited when reading the soil test data. Well consider this: One, of our associates sent out ten or so soil samples, to as many different firms. The returns well established the fact that there are serious ranges, of academic results. In fact the ranges, of differences were so great that it further proved once again that a soil test is only a guide not a concrete fact. For those wanting, to lean, towards a healthy biological base soil tests and most outside advisements can always be confusing and sometimes flat out wrong.

In most instances I trust the basics and understand that about three years is required, to build, the so called healthy or organic bases. Science has offered no absolute routing, to this end. When all the scientific fixes are finally in and done biology will still eventually be the cure. Fifty years ago I simply stopped the use of synthetic fixes, on my whole property. Everything except the garden or patch has been under permanent mulch no till management ever since. My gardens compair favorably with the best, in this area. I'm a loaner with few who trust or understand what I do or for that matter do not do.

So if the weeds grow, in your garden or patch big and nasty why not then would not anything else? I'm willing to bet they do!

Using the basics the PH will slowly come down or up depending, on where you are now because all things that rot and convert end up with a PH, of about 7.0.

I do not mind academic considerations like the fine description, of gypsum given, in a recent post. I do not use gypsum.

9/23/2005 11:59:49 AM

Utah

country kid,
I think your plans is good. If I were you I'd also try to add more OM ... leaves, manure etc ... what every you can get a hold off.

9/23/2005 12:58:51 PM

Utah

Cliff,
I don't know if my soil is or was calcareous. I think so but maybe not as badly as yours. If I were you I'd just focus on adding all the OM you can get your hands on. build your soil up on top of the existing stuff. I can sent you my soil tests if you would like.

9/23/2005 1:02:18 PM

Utah

plans is ... plan is ... plans are ... plan are ... one of those.

9/23/2005 1:03:24 PM