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Ontario, Canada.

I have come across some recent A & L information that suggest soils high in organic matter should be swung to the acid side of the scale. Why is this? What do they consider organic soil?

There is not a lot of information regarding the relationship of highly organic soils and Ph. What is the optimum range for nutrient availbility in soils above 10% OM, 15% OM and 20%?

"Soil pH: The soil pH measures active soil acidity or alkalinity. A pH of 6.9 or less is acid. Soils with a pH of 7.0 are neutral; values higher then 7.0 are alkaline. Under normal conditions the most desirable pH range for mineral soil is 6.0 to 7.0 and 5.0 to 5.5 for organic soil."

http://www.al-labs-can.com/guides_soilanalysis.html

Russ

10/4/2005 8:44:39 AM

Montoursville, PA

Russ...Seems, to me, that most if not all so called leadership or authority opinion is still based, on a whole lot, of chemistry basics. Most who are writing and making opinions we would like, to trust are still, basically holding onto the monoculture techniques. There are very few lines, of authority or knowlege, that are tied, to the basic organic theorys and present basic organic principle.

The synthetic chemical approach deals only with the chemistry, of the soil. In so doing, it basically ignores the two other major pieces, of the puzzle...physics and biology. Why then do we apply so much attention, to those who are not, in the movement, to further study and prove the relationships, of the three basic concerns?

The chemical fertilizer approach doesn't even handle the chemistry properly because the synthetic fertilizers lack carbon and any useful amount of trace minerals. In addition the physics and biology are most often completely ignored.

10/4/2005 11:17:51 AM

Montoursville, PA

MORE: If the chemistry is properly improved by using balanced organic fertilizers, the physics and biology will immediately improve. Improve the physics by aerating, and the biology and natural chemistry will improve. Improve the biology by adding biostimulants or actual living organism products, and the physics and chemistry start improving immediately.

How do you use this thinking and proven position? Ask a few qestions. If I use this product or alter my present ballances will it hurt the earthworms? If only those products that benefit the living organisms are usedk, the soil fertility will improve with every application, and nature will balance the chemistry, physics and biology for you.

Now going back, to your question or discovery. Another question comes, to mind. How does the opinion or statement I just read relate, to an indebth understanding, of a ballanced chemistry, physics and biological situation?

We know that very fine fruit and huge pumpkins specifically have been grown in a PH of 5.5. to 7.2. Therefore the range is quite wide where in one can be grown. The content or lack,of biological content, also falls within a very wide range, of factors. Applying it only, to organic content seems like a worthless statement, to me. The person making the comment likely does not know which end of an earthworm goes forward and could care less. :)))

10/4/2005 11:32:38 AM

Montoursville, PA

Ooops......Credits: The book: Dear Dirt Doctor, Howard Garrett, for most, of the above.

10/4/2005 11:37:22 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Dwaine, If have not formed an opinion one way or the other as yet. I was merely intrigued by the notion of differing Ph ranges for differing OM percentages. I certainly would like more information relating to this topic but it seams to be scant on the internet. After a couple of days of searching most of my links I'm still coming up empty.

Doc, I clearly understand the point you promote. Most of us have heavily shifted to the organic approach a few years ago. My soil is packed with OM to the tune of nearly 20% in one area. The worms are happily swimming in the newer patch areas and yet success is elusive. Are we truly certain that OM levels higher than 10% are an absolute prerequisite

However, I'm generally somewhat perplexed and confused that the soil may still not be ripe enough for a large AGP. Leaving no stone unturned, I have once again started the search for answers to my nagging desire and need to pop a biggen.

I have spoken with A & L this week and the result of the conversation have raised more questions than answers. They consider anything over 10% to be a concern. Tied up nutrients sitting on OM cation sites do little good for a grower. Resting a year on the fence and doing nothing may be the best solution to my problem.

The A & L people suggest merely that lowering Ph in certain muck soils can bring back availability of the nutrients to a more optimum range. One benefit may be increased fungal activity with lower Ph.

10/4/2005 12:08:29 PM

Ontario, Canada.

The Dirt Doctor was a good resource. I hope to find more links to gain insight as to the A & L rec.

Monty or Steve may chime in here at any time any shed some clarity on this jumbled topic,

10/4/2005 12:15:01 PM

Follansbee, Wv

Well, I'll chime in, but it may not help. My understanding of pH is that the higher the OM content of the soil, the lower the pH required to neutralize Al (Aluminum). Since the major problem with acidic soil is the high amounts of free exchangeable Al, you want to focus on neutralizing the Al itself. This can be accomplished by either raising the pH to a point that Al is no longer easily disolved, or you can boost the OM content of the soil. I am not sure how OM affects exchangeable Al in the soil (I think it has something to do with converting the Al into complex forms that are not easily disolved), but I do know that the higher your OM, the lower your pH can be. I also believe that Al can reside in the CEC exchange sites. A high saturation of Al there would tie up nutrients that your plants need. So it could be assumed that adding OM in large quantities, thereby boosting the CEC of the soil would give more room for cations like Ca or Mg.
A case in point would be my patch this year. This was new ground that tested at pH 4.9. I knew I could not get the pH high enough by spring using lime alone. So I opted to lime, and use tons of manures and compost in an attempt to neutralize the Al. I have not pulled the fall soil samples yet, so I am not sure what my current levels are. I think I remember discussing that very thing with Tom last fall. I was concerned with the lime amounts required, and the time it takes lime to actually work. I believe I also mentioned to him that I was going to kick my OM as high as I possibly could to try to get away with the lower pH.
Well, I've babbled enough, and probably haven't helped a bit.

10/4/2005 2:08:04 PM

Montoursville, PA

Two conditions or comments I noticed: You are calling the 10% or higher OM content. A few lines later you said, maybe correctly.."may not be ripe enough to be effective".

OM content is not enough in itself. Your biology has to move it into humus and beyond to humates which is in a form the plant can pick up and use. What goes on at this point is so complex most of us just say humates are usable. That is almost true. What really transpires is that the plants roots create a very small area of specialized bacteria that finishes the job so that the plant can use exactly what it needs. We assume that if the ballance or total content needed is in the patch the roots can perform as required by the plant.

Not ripe enough....fits into the above very well. Last fall cooled off in a hurry for many, of us and it stayed that way very late this past spring. The conditions for conversion through the steps to usable nutrients was indeed on the cold side. Having lots of everything needed was of little value if the biology was unable to perform in cold weather. Warming the soil to enable it to happen was possibly important this spring.

10/4/2005 3:54:39 PM

Montoursville, PA

Continued observation of the weather last spring. It stayed cold then boom it changed, to very hot very fast. Now what many, of us experienced was all new. I was not ready, to deal with the heat. The bacteria exploded into action working time and half time delivering, to me one heck, of a patch, of lettuce. In the simplest form I saw that as, to much nitrogen, from natural OM, in my patch. I saw the first batch, of aerobic tea delivering an army, of bilogical critters, bacteria and fungi that may have further encouraged or helped develop, to much nitrogen.

You heard the story all over the Northeast...female flowers were slow to appear, polinations were followed, by abortions, vine tips burned off the plants and there were an exceptional amount, of so called exploding vines. These conditions had, to work themselves, out before good polinations and real fruit growth, could proceed. In my case, which had a lot, of company, it was late July before we got a good polination and on both plants that was, on a secondary because the main was vigerous, soft and sunburned clear off the plants. This did not happen, in near by, first year low OM patches. They did fine with plants fighting, to just make a plant, on low nitrogen and no content that could go nuts when the hot weather hit.

Cool Luke....Larry Checkon was experienced and ready with whatever it took, to deal, with the above conditions. Automated water cooling when it was most needed was no small effort. He got them going ahead, of that heat and kept them going when it arrived. Early start with properly warmed soil and excellent management. Would we expect less?

Fiddle as I might even with reasonably good equipment and experience I did not even get close, to his, Cool Luke management this year.

10/4/2005 4:21:33 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Monty, what ever you ended up with worked pretty darn good.

10/4/2005 9:08:46 PM

maine USA

I am quite disturbed to see that some of the organic matter that I have been adding to my patch may not be available for quite a while, along with the fact that I may have over done it. I have applied manure seaweed, Epsoma lime, greensand, one of their mixed fertilizers, and gypsom. Am I still going to need to apply chemical fertilizers because my nutrients will be tied up?

10/7/2005 12:48:23 AM

Montoursville, PA

Fall placement of your amendments is the most advantageous placement. Follow with the 6 ounces of molasses per gallon, of water, at the rate of one gallon per 500 sq. ft. Plant a cover crop and till it under in the spring with another application of molasses. You should be in excellent shape to grow a dandy. I assume your PH is in the 6.5 - 7.2 ballpark.

You seem a little confused. Turn our first sentance around. and inhance it this way. I have just put on an excellent soil ammendment package. Some of it will still be working in my patch three years later. That is how we build. You might use half of what you put in this fall. The rest stays put. You do the same, for several years, to build an even stronger patch, at a higher OM of perhaps 10 - 15%. Any OM above five will grow a nice pumpkin. More than 15% may require a good bit, of management skill that many, do not seem, to have. I see talk of less OM than was regular talk just a short time ago.

10/7/2005 12:19:50 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Ripe enough was a figure of speech. Corrected I could have said that the OM was locking up nutrients thereby creating a problem of imbalance.

The key as I have learned the hard way is that soil should be slowly changed by incorporating OM and not overburdening the natural actions of the soil.

Kathy you have made all the right moves. It just takes time for Bobby Fisher to beat the other guy at a game of chess

10/7/2005 5:35:35 PM

maine USA

Thanks Barrie and Monty I glad to hear such positives from both of you Bobby Fisher is trying real hard! Kathy T

10/7/2005 11:21:24 PM

Montoursville, PA

Russ........I believe you are absolutely right and was trying, to call attention, to overloading OM or manures, that may do exactly what you indicate....specifically more so, in the spring. Sometimes like this past year's early cold fall can hold an overload into the following spring. Whatever goes in has, to have a working biology, to ballance the input. By November the first last fall the warm days were few and far between. Here we did not even have the January thaw which some years is a substancial help, in the soil's effort, to adjust, to the fall input.

Almost all non-pumpkin growers, advisors, and observers think we are nuts overloading beyond that anyone seems to understand. Based on my observation I do not see the patches that are really overloaded, with anything, being sustainable. A brief study, of record fruit, mysterously seems, to be almost a one time affair. I find this very interesting while acknowledging that I have not found the other way, to do it as of, this hour.

I feel very strongly that this thread contains much truth that will help any grower get more in tune with his or her patch.

10/8/2005 11:08:14 AM

Follansbee, Wv

Let's not loose sight of one simple fact here. OM is Organic Matter...period. It encompasses a wide array of materials from dead animals to dead weeds. It's the level of decomposition of the OM materials that you need to look at. It is impossible to overburden soil with OM if the OM materials are properly composted. The only way organic matter in the soil can hurt you is if your soil is out of balance to begin with. As discussed earlier, the higher the OM content, the lower the pH. That's called balance. There is a point however, where pH levels can be too low, regardless of OM content. Another thing to consider is what happens to OM over time? Once it's completely decomposed, and all nutrients have been extracted from it, what do we have? Dirt.

You said it yourself Doc,

"I was not ready, to deal with the heat. The bacteria exploded into action working time and half time delivering, to me one heck, of a patch, of lettuce. In the simplest form I saw that as, to much nitrogen, from natural OM, in my patch. I saw the first batch, of aerobic tea delivering an army, of bilogical critters, bacteria and fungi that may have further encouraged or helped develop, to much nitrogen."

That statement tells me you used uncomposted materials in your patch. Composted materials, humus if you will, have very little nitrogen content. Nitrogen cannot be created by bacteria. In fact, bacteria require nitrogen to live. That is why keeping your compost pile balanced is so important. In fact, excess bacteria populations could very well deplete nitrogen levels in high OM soils if that OM is not fully decomposed.

I just though I would throw that out there since there seems to be some confusion as to what OM, humus and humates are. BTW, humates are not derived from humus, but rather are a part of it.

10/11/2005 2:30:15 PM