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Eastern Pennsylvania

I have 35 cubic yards of composted horse manure on ~2500sq feet and I can't let my plants get over 400sq feet each this year. Since I don't want them to run all over, I was thinking of adding very little or no nitrogen suppliments for basically the entire season. Plenty of the other essentials though. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? The manure was literally 8 inches deep in many spots. Thanks,
Jim

1/28/2006 5:59:39 PM

Anamosa, IA BPIowegian@aol.com

8" is a lot of manure. Even if it is well composted you should have a lot of nitrogen. You might want to consider adding no extra nutrients at all, like Dan Carlson does.

1/29/2006 4:32:14 AM

Phoenix, AZ

Wowzers, that is a lot of S*&^!

I have been having problems with so much OM added at one time in my little patch. the Ph for me does not want to go down below 6.9 and because of the intense OM levels (above 15%), it needs to be lower. Nutrients are being locked up...especially Mn.

Do a search on the web about higher OM level soils and best Ph.

1/29/2006 9:45:57 AM

Phoenix, AZ

Had to clarify, the OM is not the cause of my Ph being where it is, it is my excessive naturaly lime. OM should as a rule bring the Ph down a 1/2 point or so.

1/29/2006 9:47:32 AM

Montoursville, PA

PH of 6.5 - 7.2 has generally been considered excellent. Why mess with it? Those tests can be off and differ considerably. They are only guidelines not scientific facts.

1/29/2006 10:43:22 AM

Eastern Pennsylvania

OM brings the pH down 0.5 points per what units? (lbs compost per 1000sq feet, etc)? Also, I put 10 truckloads of maple leaves on in the fall. I'm afraid my pH level is going to plummit.

Jim

1/30/2006 11:30:51 AM

Saegertown Pa.

Depending on what you are adding to get more OM it can raise your PH. I use mushroom compost and I'm adding sulfer all the time to try and get my ph down.

1/30/2006 12:33:55 PM

Montoursville, PA

Jim..........forget the PH worries. All organic material finishes at about PH 7.0. Therefore if your PH was higher than 7.0 your PH could come down a little. If your PH was below 7.0 your PH could come up a little. You are attempting to play the numbers, in a scientific manor which can not be done, by either scientists or biologists.

At this point from what you have told us you may be running a chance that your natrual nitrogen may be tied up at least, in the early part, of the season. I would put twenty five pounds per one thousand square feet, of low number fertilizer on like Fertrells 4 - 2 - 4. Add your 20 lbs of kelp, remineralization 20 lbs. like Ironite or Fertrell's Azomite, 20 lbs of corn meal and four ounces, of molasses when you till this spring. Nothing else is required. By July you should be pretty well ballanced with your own nitrogen coming back from the conversions that have been going on. Adding another 20 lbs of low number organic fertilizer about July 1st. would not be an excess.

If you test this fall you should see all values going up including the OM. The PH should not have changed much in either direction. If it did change there is another reason. Consult at the time if you feel it is important.

Add another four to six inches of manure, lots of leaves and till them in this fall. Plant a rye grass cover crop by the middle of October....and don't forget a touch of corn meal and molasses. You should be in excellent shape by this time next year if you are not already there.

It takes two or three years to build a truely better soil from any point you begin. The first year may not show you major improvements. It takes time for the biological elements to strengthen even in the absence, of synthetic materials.

If you want, to really help yourself begin a compost pile and work towards putting it on your nurserys each fall with your soil prep activities.

1/30/2006 12:59:08 PM

Eastern Pennsylvania

Dwaine,I hear what you're saying about adding a low amount of quick release nitrogen and of course the fall prep. It just comes back to- if I don't want a big plant (main vine under 30 ft long) should I really be adding any nitro at all, and instead just pump up the phosphorous? The sun is intense here so rather than having a ton of foliage that can wilt out, I'd like to have a well developed root system in place that can supply the leaves and fruit with water efficiently. Obviously this will be a learning experience.

1/30/2006 2:21:32 PM

Montoursville, PA

I have never really been, in your shoes. You put in a heck, of a load, all at once. Yes add the little bit, of organic low number product. You have pleanty of goodies, in that patch. It just needs time, to get adjusted or ballanced out.

And furthermore if you come up on the yellow or pale green side use a little Ironite liquid foliar or something equal.

1/30/2006 4:14:51 PM

Utah

Jim,
in the fall of 03 I added about a foot of fresh horse manure to my previouly unammended patch. In the spring I added N... the manure was still fairly woody and I wanted some available to the plant and to help break down the manure. was this the right thing to do ? I don't know... but It worked out fine for me.
I would say it depends on how well composted you manure is ... do you think you might need some more N to help break it down ... or do you think there is plenty enough in it still.
hope this helps
gordon

1/30/2006 5:49:29 PM

Montoursville, PA

There are growers consistantly growing thousand pound and heavier pumpkins using the flag pattern and only four hundred square feet, of developed canopy. I feel the containment, of the vigerous vine, is the act, of pruning. Your goal is a strong healthy soil leading to a stong total plant managed, to produce a big healthy fruit.

I have heard that genetics can have within their total an abilitiy, to grow better, in higher heat situations. If this is true then seed selection based on reported facts would possibly be as important as stronger ballanced soil. As more growers gain more growing experience this type of knowledge will increase and improve.

1/30/2006 7:21:52 PM