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Farmville, Virginia (mfowler@hsc.edu)

What devices do you guys use to foliar feed? Tank sprayers, sprinkler cans?

What is the best time of day to foliar feed? I'm guessing early evening.

7/7/2006 4:07:24 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Yes.........And more.

Watering can on seedlings.
Pump sprayer or Solo Backpack for mid-sized plants.
Irrigation system once the patch fills in.

Early evening here. The leaf stomate cells are closed so the other guard cells are opening & ready for absorption.

7/7/2006 5:20:04 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Steve, thanks for your regular super-informative posts...but now ya lost me!!!! I understood all you said up until "leaf somate cells are closed...and so forth...???Can you tell me what yer talkin bout??? LOL Once again, thanks for "ALL" of your input!!! Peace, Wayne

7/7/2006 9:59:54 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

I hope hoots doesn't mind this lengthy explaination.

Good eye Wayne. I was hoping someone would pick up on that.
I can't explain it as well as David Kopec, the Extension Turfgrass Specialist at the University of Arizona. I tried to cut a link to his work but it was dead. So I lifted the text instead.

His paper is for C3 & C4 turfgrass but the same applies to all higher order plants.

My comments wil be in <brackets>
______________________begin clip__________________________

How does foliar feeding work for a plant?

The fertilizer elements applied to turfgrass leaves are absorbed through tiny cracks or pores in the surface of the leaf surface in the wax layer <actually the "cuticle">. These pores are very, very small tubes, and are lined with water. They are called transcuticular pores.

These pores are less than one nanometer in opening size (one billionth of a meter long). Because they are small, only small mineral particles can be taken in. Thus, small particles like urea nitrogen can enter, but not large particles like iron cheleates! These pore channels are also lined with negative channels, so they are attracted to positively charged fertilizer particles such as ammonium, potassium, magnesium and sodium, and tend to repel anions, like nitrate, phosphate, and sulphates. Likewise, nitrogen based on urea or ammonium can be transported through these leaf pores. These are the general rules.

continued

7/8/2006 12:19:56 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

If the pores get flooded with a large concentration of anions inside the tubes, then they can absorb some nitrate and phosphates. This is limited, however.

Foliar fertilizer does not penetrate the stomates of leaves. The inner walls of the stomates (water control valves for leaf cooling) are covered with globs of wax, to repel outside water from entering the stomates, themselves. Also, foliar absorption is actually greatest at night (when stomates are closed). This shows that stomates play no role in foliar feeding.

The concentration of stomates on turf leaves does indirectly affect foliar-feed uptake. As the number of stomates increases, there are more micro pores appearing on the leaf between stomate cells. Under these conditions, the pores appear to be more permeable and numerous than other micro pore (cracks) on the leaf surface. These cracks (between the stomates) are larger in size and can allow passage of large size metal cheleates (like cheleated iron) and pesticides.

A curious observation is that foliar feeding always seemed to work better (for me) on cool season grasses, than Bermuda! Well, cool season grasses have higher concentrations of stomates (to keep the leaves cool!). This makes sense and now I know why!

__________edited for length___________________________

7/8/2006 12:20:43 AM

Farmville, Virginia (mfowler@hsc.edu)

Hey Tremor, no problem with leaving a big message. That was very informative info! The things I learn here are endless! Thank you for your answers to my questions. I always look forward to them.

7/8/2006 8:46:14 AM

Owensboro, Ky.

Now ya gonna make me think a little...any one know how concentrated stomates are on AG's? I'm startin to get a headache!!!! Thanks again Steve, for all the hi-tech info!!! Peace, Wayne

7/8/2006 10:29:28 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

I have a 25X Macroscope here on my desk but I'll be darned if I'm going to sit here trying to count the stomata even if the magnification is great enough (and I doubt it is)! LOL

Actually a little googling might yield this data. In botany class I remember we stained leaves & examined them under a microscope. Identifying guard sells & such was actually pretty cool but I don't remember which species we used.

Sometimes it is best to use a drawing to illustrate a concept.

Here is a cool illustration of a leaf:

http://www.fairchildgarden.org/EduProfDev/Leaf_anatomy.html

Look at the blue (in the drawing) guard cells which open & close the stomata. Notice the interfacing lines of demarcation between the blue (guard cell) & green upper epidermis? That "seam" is where foliar fertilizer absorption takes place. As guard cells close the stomata, the "seam" next to the neighboring epidermal cells "loosen" or relax which permits easier entry of foliar applications.

7/8/2006 11:00:21 PM

Sheridan . NY

HI ALL--Bottom line is ---after 17 year of foliar feed on fruits and vegatables and G P S ---there is no doubt that that even simple sugar-or molasses AND--------------------------------------Agro-k works and there is huge difference and beneficial advange-----craig

7/9/2006 8:53:21 AM

NEPA roller46@hotmail.com KB3QKV

When you foliar feed toward evening do you risk the chance of PM? Does more evaporate when you foliar feed during the warmest part of the day?

7/9/2006 10:12:21 AM

San Jose garysand@pacbell.net

from reading that article, there is no use of foliar on top of the leaf? other than it will run off, hit the ground and be absorbed by the roots later, oh, and hopefully keep some PM from forming

7/9/2006 10:16:43 AM

Garden State Pumpkins

foliar during the warmest part of the day is asking to burn off all your leaves

7/9/2006 10:22:11 AM

Danville, CA (petman2@yahoo.com)

I have only been spraying the tops of the leaves. Have I been wasting my foliar feed? Foliar feeding would take on a whole new meaning if I had to get under the leaves.

What do you pros do?

7/9/2006 12:44:00 PM

Mocksville, NC

Spray foliar means plant /tops are fine if you get everybit great! And Alex knows about foliar feeding/ Early morning or early evening. Early evening just allow enough time to let dry before darkness falls.

7/9/2006 1:11:24 PM

Mocksville, NC

Oh! didnt see the ~ What do you pros do? I'm no pro!!!

7/9/2006 1:14:31 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

The handful of growers that I know who get paid for their Ag's certainly do not foliar feed. LOL. That is not a cost effective approach for large scale production (in their eyes).

Hitting both sides of the leaves is important. True what lands ontop still gets to the roots eventually. Peter's did an NPK recovery study a few years ago & the foliar treatmenst (by their process) yielded a pathetic 20 or 30% recovery of foliar nutrients. They determined that (using whatever means they used) the balance was root absorbed or lost to volatilization.

Try a hose end sprayer & use larger volumes of water. If a vigorous application method is used, leaf bottoms are bound to get hit.

7/9/2006 2:10:53 PM

Abbotsford, B.C

Yeah, spraying in the evening sounds good, I always have time then, but the powdery mildew issue still worries me. In the humid Pacific Northwest where I live, leaves that are wet at night create optimum PM conditions, creating a nightmare for me to deal with.

Tremor, the article you showed here is very interesting. The cooler it is, the more the guard cells open, and the more absorption takes place. I was thinking then, that shouldn't the ideal foliar fertilizing time be in the very early morning, say 5 to 6 A.M? At this time of the morning, it would still be very cool (thus, higher rates of nutrient absorption), yet it would avoid the problem of PM caused by leaves remaining wet throughout the night. What do you think about this? (Of course, the big downfall is having to actually get up that early, but...)

Also, one more question I have had, what exactly are the differences between the upper and lower part of the leaf when it comes to stomates and guard cells? Know of any links that would show a good-quality diagram of a leaf showing this?

Very interesting discussion, I do think that I am going to alter my foliar fertilizing methods after this.

Cameron

7/9/2006 3:14:34 PM

ENGLAND

Those Growers that use Foggers, to apply liquids onto the plants leaves, do so because both the under and upper leaf surfaces get a 'misting' thus increasing the amount of plant surface area that gets misted.

7/9/2006 3:25:31 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Cameron,

I would have to suggest that your concern of damp leaves over night is valid. But it is also why so many growers have switched to nightly low-dose fertility programs like Agro-K which also employ the addition of "stuff" (compost tea, molasses, sea-kelp, milk, etc) that is toxic to Powdery Mildew. Plain water would foster disease inoculation. But leaving an adverse PM environment every night is a sure fire way to fight disease if one has time in their schedule to stay on track.

If nightly spraying isn't possible then adding a conventional low-dose fungicide once a week will also prevent mildew & permit evening foliar fertilizer. Mix the 2 together.

Ditto Mike's mistblower comment. This is why so many growers are dropping $500 on the Stihl (and similar) mist blowers. THEY WORK because they make such good plant contact. Plus they are so easy to use that making regular applications isn't a bothersome or time consuming task.

I couldn't imaging doing Jerry Rose's patch with my Solo bacpack sprayer every night. YIKES!

7/9/2006 4:41:11 PM

Danville, CA (petman2@yahoo.com)

Ok, so now I see "every night" I have Seaweed, fish, etc. that I use but was going for every three days. Are you guys foliar feeding daily? Or are you watering in the fertilizer as a normal rootzone feeding? Confused me a bit but at least I will change to evening instead of morning feedings.

7/9/2006 7:59:03 PM

Ontario

Do the stihl mist blowers get under the leaves, and are they easily move around the patch to get the whole plant? What is their effective spray radius and what if it is windy out? I currently use a backpack sprayer and is getting to be a pain with 2 plants? Can you mix agro k and insecticides together? Sorry for so many questions but this is an interesting post.

drew

7/9/2006 10:03:44 PM

Rocky-r@stny.rr.com

Would you consider Eagle20 as one of the better fungicides out there to prevent Powdery Mildew? I am an evening waterer, and PM always devastates my patch come early September. I do not want this to happen, so I am going to start with the Eagle20. I believe this to be systemic method, so it will get into each plant for some time, maybe weekly application?

7/9/2006 10:24:01 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Eric,

Hopefully Craig will chime in on the Agro-K aspect of this thread. Agro-K is an every night application program of some foliar element which changes depending on the stage of growth we are in. Basically it delivers a soil wakeup early, Nitrogen for vining, Phosphorus for fruit-set, Calcium & Phos for fruit, then potash to finish. Not rocket science, but a solid program which helps nullify some diseases along the way.

Drew,

I talk with Jerry Rose quite a bit. He wouldn't trade his Stihl for a 1400 pounder....well....maybe he would but you know what I mean. I use a backpack too. It's a pain as the patch fills in. A mist blower permits the applicator to walk outside the patch & fog right into the secondaries all the way into the main. A backapck requires walking between the secondaries. Grrrr....
Wind &/or off-target application is a concern especially if growing in a dense or sensitive area.

Rock,

Eagle/Nova (Myclobutanil) is the BEST Powdery Mildew fungicide we have for after disease has started. It's also a good preventive fungicide. Myclobutanil is a sustemic.

I would prefer Quadris/Heritage in rotation (or combination) with Daconil as an early preventive but strobilurin fungicides like Quadris/Heritage should never be used after PM is seen.

If I could have only one fungicide, then Eagle would be it. Using the low rate (2 millilites per gallon) once a week is ideal. If PM is still seen, then ramp the dose to 4 ml. But start low so as to not age the foliage early.

If folks haven't started PM sprays already, then get started NOW.

7/9/2006 11:16:14 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

I believe that insecticides can be mixed with most Agro-K products. But read the labels &/or call Craig first!

7/9/2006 11:18:06 PM

President - GPC

I have heard that using Baking Soda can deter PM with a foliar type application. Fact or Fiction?? Additionally, I read from the PGVG newsletter that washing off the PM spores nightly prevented PM.....?? I would assume one would want it to dry before nightfall.
In chatting with Craig earlier in the year we discussed the proper applications of the Agro-K and one ounce to the gallon I believe is just that, with a atomizing sprayer (not hose-end) too big of drops...... We tested some hose end sprayers and they are great for seaweed and insecticides but once they clog they start to dilute the application. I guess Im kind of a stickler for accuracy.....If it says one ounce per gallon I would think .5 ounces per gallon would not be ultimate.......although less could be more...... :) Please correct me if I'm .5% off......LOL

7/10/2006 9:28:31 AM

Sheridan . NY

OK IM HERE--STEVE you got me thinking and typing---ok i suggest evening feeding i dont worry about DM OR PM for one reason its the feeding sked the products and are made for GROWING Things---The VIGOR CAL and the VIGOR CAL PHOS are a big part of this program ----but!the G P sked has come 1000,s of farm fruit & vegie crops the VC is a micro refined and go in to the plant easy and the VCP the same but haveing phosphite and copper--mix all 3 its all most magic--!! but its also using the right thing at the right time in the plants growth stage--plant health-- and as STEVE SAID NULLAFIEING and preventing along the way--Dont think i dont use funcides and bug juice when i need it --cause i do --I READ AND WATCH WHAT I GROW VERY CLOSELY--THIS feeding every day yes can be pain in the ass and yes going from and 1 gal sprayer to a back pack and to a STIHL is inprovement every time--IM Confess-i bought one this year --mixing anything together--do a test mix in a qt jar- if it looks like Italian dressing and seperates dont do it or spray it--THEIR IS to much info out there on all of this and yes--is very confuseing at times --I HOPE I HAVE HELPED--email me or call me im glad to help if i can--craig

7/10/2006 10:04:03 AM

Sheridan . NY

OH--THERE is lot of why & howcome ?? info on www.candjfert.com or www.agro-k.com --craig

7/10/2006 10:13:06 AM

Western NY

like craig said, foliar (especially the agro-k program) will cut down on your leaf mildew. i've experienced it myself. i believe nearly all of it is prevented by the spraytech oil and using fish.

i spray after sunset. depending on the weather, i have been spraying at about 9pm lately.

baking soda - i haven't tried it, but it's supposed to work. it's sodium bicarbonate. same thing with potassium bicarbonate, which is sold under a trade name which i forget. it's marketed as a PM killer.

7/10/2006 11:35:43 AM

Midwest

That would be Remedy by Bionide Andy.

7/10/2006 1:20:38 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Armicarb 100 is another Powdery Mildew fungicide but it isn't exactly Baking Soda (sodium bicarbonate) instead it is Potassium Bicarbonate (better for plants).

http://www.attra.org/attra-pub/bakingsoda.html

Thanks Craig!

I think one of the unique things about Agro-K (that the manufacturer can't really say exactly legally...sort of) is that Vigor-Cal-Phos contains Phosphites (that's legal to say).


Check out the following labels:

Aliette Fungicide - http://www.cdms.net/ldat/ld4FB005.pdf
Topaz Fungicide - http://www.cdms.net/ldat/ld6ME000.pdf

Time constraints...but Agri-Phos, Prohyte, & Phostrol are all phosphite technologies as well. Do a search of these.

These are all phosphorous acid (or phosphonate) products that are legally labeled fungicides or fertilizers.

http://www.csu.edu.au/nwgic/pages/extension/downymildew.pdf

http://www.vegedge.umn.edu/mnfruit&vegnews/Vol2/530fungicide.htm

Check out this Downy Mildew link if you have Powerpoint:

http://viticulture.hort.iastate.edu/info/pdf/fungicidechemistry27_54.pdf

When a fertilizer ingredient in our program just happens to be a fungicide, then leaving the plants damp at night is suddenly a good thing.

7/10/2006 1:54:40 PM

milford, CT,

So....what you guys are saying is when foliar feeding the best method would be an hour before dark or early morning, and to spray under the leaves not just on top of the leaves?
Very interesting post, I always thought foliar meant spray over the plants. If spraying under allows the plant to better transport the foliar, then it would be worth the extra work! Does this sound right as a summary of what you guys are saying?

7/10/2006 9:38:04 PM

San Jose garysand@pacbell.net

if you see one of steve's earlier postings here, he posted an article, from what I saw on that article, most if not all feeding is done UNDER the leaf, the top is a kind of waxy film that just pretty much repels moisture of any kind, but what rolls off the top of the leaf drops into your soil and gives it a boost, also may help keep PM at bay, so there is no harm doing the top

http://www.fairchildgarden.org/EduProfDev/Leaf_anatomy.html

I think this is the one

Gary

7/10/2006 10:03:08 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Correct! We've arrived at some valuable take home points.


>>The leaf top does very little besides absorb sunshine & protect the leaf's internal workings. The leaf top is so good at protecting the bottom that most fungal pests, mites, etc will hide on the BOTTOM which is where we want our control agents to go.

>>We would want our foliar treatments made late in the afternoon or early evening coincidentally also to the leaf bottoms. By morning our window of opportunity is closing.

>>A good fertility program might be nightly & should include elements that are fungistatic to Powdery & Downy Mildews.

>>Phosphites & Phosphonates are fertilizers & fungicides so their place is obvious on 1 or 2 of those nights.

>>A low dose of a broad spectrum DMI fungicide (Eagle) would be sensible addition to our low dose nightly fertility program.

>>Molasses should be included. It raises Brix levels which may repel pests. It also adds potash which Pumpkins need. I will also suggest that a layer containing molasses might even by adverse to Powdery Mildew inoculation.

>>Potassium Bicarbonate+Stylet Oil & even M-Pede (Safer Soap) are all aggressively damaging to Powdery Mildew & would also make good bio-rational additions to our nightly regime.

>>Compost Teas also have a place in our nightly program especially those brews that are shown to suppress disease in peer reviewed studies & are made from obtainable material in an easy to replicate fashion.

>>(DON'T LAUGH!) Milk & sulphate fertilizers also modify the pH of our leaf surface. If timely applications are made, the result is an exclusion of Powdery Mildew.

7/10/2006 11:34:07 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Many folks would suggest that these foliar programs are causing natural triggers to cause a plant to fend off pests & diseases. Without negating the benefits, I will respectfully object to these claims. I believe we are making an environment that is moderately to very toxic to the causal pathogens of Powdery & Downy Mildews.

The above mentioned elements might also be help to ward of Phytophthora, Fusarium & Rhizoctonia if delivery, element mix & timing are correct.

SAR (Systemic Acquired Resistance) can be induced via aspirin & the Harpin protein Messenger. But this isn't what we're discussing here. We're just taking advantage of the best place to foliar feed which also happens to be the place where several of our worst pests would like to enter out plants. So we're making their lives impossible while making the plants as strong as possible.

Here is some more good reading:

http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/foliar.html

7/10/2006 11:34:16 PM

Salmon Arm, BC

Tremor...you said milk????? how much mixed with sulfur? I can't beleive this..it's true...lol Deb

7/11/2006 12:10:25 AM

Salmon Arm, BC

maple leaves, mollasses and milk..hmmmm

7/11/2006 12:11:14 AM

Salmon Arm, BC

ps: absolutely NO disrespect meant at all! I LOVE your explanations and answers...gives me a basis point to direct further research..thank-you! Deb :)_

7/11/2006 12:13:39 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Yes milk....LOL....Originally a 10% Whole unprocessed milk was the only thing thought to work.

However it is now suggested that lowfat skim milk is better since there is no fat to spoil & stink.

10% is 12.8 oz per gallon of water. This link recommends once a week. We're trying it at the school this year.

http://www.thefrugallife.com/mildew.html

7/11/2006 12:41:46 AM

Abbotsford, B.C

wow.... good stuff!!! Thanks for your incredibly thorough answers to my question, tremor. Very informative as usual. So... it turns out milk DOES have a very good use in the patch, just not like most people think! He he.

Cameron

7/11/2006 1:23:38 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

I suspect this is how Milk's reputation came about. But now that it's out just wait....some yahoo will have lamp wicking & IV tubes all over the patch. LOL

7/11/2006 8:37:43 AM

Sheridan . NY

MORIN ALL --You to Steve--well-- I just grow things and watch farmers and people grow thing from flower to vegies--and some one is WRONG --!! when saying that foliar is not working on the top of leaf -- the foliar penatrates stems leafs top and botton and the bark of growing things --I have tree and nursey growers that cut there grow and sale time by one year---also has anyone ever notice how after a rain weeds-lawn--and any thing that grows perk up --it the foliar Nitrogen that get pulled out of the sky--plant dont grow on water alone at all----STEVE --we are as me and you have discussed many times -- the dumb farmer verses steve-- you haveing 1000 times more tech info than i will have-- I have great recpect for you and all research---but just once in a while everyone needs to give that split second of though to the old men that have been there and done that----foliar is the real thing with out any though--- I will pop in from time to time but it is very hard to give answers with mass amounts of tech Info out there--email or callme if i can be of any help---craig

7/11/2006 8:38:31 AM

President - GPC

Outstanding thread......Compost tea.....its about that time, Tremor would one want to foliar spray with the compost tea too? Craigs program calls for a soil drench. Im thinking augmentation to the Agro-K program with a milk day maybe in order, perhaps right after the fish and seeweed night, we'll have a milk night. I have heard of people truncating vines then putting the cut ends into a container of milk for a day or two........interesting.....and I thought it was only a calcium thing......

7/11/2006 8:54:35 AM

President - GPC

One thing I am certain of is I do like this Agro-K program, since most of my garden got wiped out with shotgun blasts of hail, I have hit it with the extra Agro-K stuff left over, Potatoes, tomatoes, lettuce, Zuchinnis, squash, they love the stuff, and so do the weeds......I have giant giant purslane....it makes it easier to pullem out of the ground. Tonight its Seaweed foilar and drench, and I can bank on all my greenry growing before my eyes.....it really is amazing

7/11/2006 9:02:05 AM

Ontario

I noticed this spring that I would foilar spray Agro K's 10-8-8 on top of the leaves and the next morning the plant would be a dark green. i THINK that under the leaves is better but what Craig is saying that the agro k is a concentrate and matter how small the absorbtion rate is on the top of the leaves that agro k's concentration level is enough so that the plant is still getting what it needs. Just have to look what happened last year around here and the east coast, the majority of the big pumpkins were using the agro k program. I couldn't believe watching Bryans 1327 last year and was a doubter myself but not anymore. You still need good weather and luck and I know a lot of growers think its no good, but the weather this year in some areas you wouldn't be able to grow anything when your patch is under water. My plants this year are the best looking I have ever had and my pumpkins are great. Will surpass the 20 day benchmark in two days with ease and am off to the best start I have ever had. Some growers that don't like the program or it isn't working for them, you just have to ask a couple of questions and you find out they are not following the program. With this you have to be motivated and have to spray every night and it does take more committment, but it all depends on ho0w badly you want to gtrow a big one. Spraying every 3rd day or once a week and complaining you don't have the time, thats why its not working, its not the program its the commitment level. drew

7/11/2006 9:10:48 AM

Ontario

continued.. Just look at Jerry Rose, Andy Wolfe, Bryan Dueck, Joe Pukos etc, they are all using it and you can't argue with their results. Wife loves it on her flowers and vegetable garden. My tomatoe are miles ahead of everyone else's around here. Enough rambling, Steve is correct but so is Craig.

drew

7/11/2006 9:14:12 AM

President - GPC

I agree, they both are the best.....Over the last three days we have had rain.....it ruined my schedule, but I sprayed molasses, VCP and symbex10X, all in one spraying......leaves the next day a very noticable darker green, not too dark but dark green......I like it. My leaves this year are huge.....If not for the hail I would be very excited this year....but your very right...its a physical law ....energy put in is energy returned....Thanks 2 both Steve,Craig and all.... keep it coming....Grow'em BIG.....my Reiss has a baby 10' out.....

7/11/2006 9:54:26 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

I don't think any of the researchers are saying that the upper leaf surface *can't* absorb nutrients. But the bottom is the *better& absorption area & also the place where some insects, mites & fungal diseases start or are harbored so it makes sense to focus our efforts there.

7/11/2006 10:36:48 PM

Danville, CA (petman2@yahoo.com)

VF-11, a foliar feed that really works well, actually says to spray in the heat of the day. That it will not burn and that the sooner it dries, the sooner the nutrients are available to the plant. This flies in the face of the discussion above. I would think they have done foliar feeding research as well in order to make their product work as well as possible so.....

7/15/2006 10:27:37 PM

Follansbee, Wv

Isn't it also possible that Jerry, Andy, Bryan, and Joe grow so well because they also have excellent patch prep? I see numbers every fall about growers who did well using Agro-K...but how many growers did not? How many people bought into Agro-K just to grow another 500 pounder? (Not that there is anything wrong with that) I have seen the patch of Jerry Rose. I have seen what he has to work with. Jerry is a phenominal grower, and definately knows his business, but how many have blown up since using Agro-K? Is there a stastic for that?

Mother nature does not need to be fooled with. Don't get me wrong, I use compost tea, mostly as a drench to replenish the soil. My problem with Agro-K is it's claim to fame coming from growers that already have the skills and soil prep to do the job...without Agro-K.

This thread was about the best time to foliar feed and what equipment to use. It turned into first, an advertisement for Agro-k, then a debate on where the leaves are most receptive to feeding....

Hoots, use the sprayer that suits you and your budget the best. Foliar feed in the early morning or early evening. Don't be taken in by claims to fame. The top growers are the top growers because they prep their soil and tend their plants with a diligence most people don't have. In the fall, when the numbers come out, and there is another "Agro-K wins top spot" advertisement/post, just look at who the grower was, and learn about their commitment to the hobby. Find out how many fruit they blew up to get just one to the scales, and then wonder how many would have made it on their own.

OK, I'm off my soap box now.

7/16/2006 12:22:55 AM

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

I'm keeping it simple at the moment using a miracle gro feeder on a hose filled with a fairly weak feed when the solution in the feeder gets clear I put in some more usually 2 or 3 days.All my watering/feeding is done overhead around the middle of the day I am growing under polythene and my plants will wilt badly at this time on a sunny day if I don't use evaporative cooling,in fact you could say I only get burnt leaves when I DON'T foliar feed in the middle of the day if I am unable to get there for some reason.Everybodys plants must wilt a bit on a very hot day if you mist the tops of the leaves does it help?
of course it does therefore the leaves must be taking in water(and any nutrient present)at mid day.I'm not saying it is better than evening but that the window is wider than some are saying.Test a leaf or two first of course.

7/16/2006 5:27:53 AM

Long Island,New York

The water on the leaves is evaporating giving up the heat on the leaf, its not the leaf absorbing the water.

7/16/2006 10:11:10 AM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

Monty,
As far as not fooling mother nature, isnt giving a tea brewed with alot of alfalfa for increased nitro and natural growth hormones doing just that?
We all do something to boost the growth rates...lol

7/16/2006 11:33:57 AM

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

Hmm.Even though my overhead feeding isn't doing any harm and night time humidity would rewet any residue left behind it doesn't get hardly any liquid on the underside of the leaves,I think I will go back to misting with a back pack in the evenings as well.

7/17/2006 5:32:57 AM

Ontario

Monty, Thats the beautiful thing about agro k. Soil prep is not that critical. The last two years have been easy when it comes to soil prep. Before we would get a soil test then try to figure out what the soil needed and would apply ammendments. Then we would get another soil test in the spring and tweak it some more. Now we add some manure and calcium and thats it, the agro k fills in what your soil is missing by applying it as a foiliar. I know theres many ways to run a marathon but this takes the guess work out of it and by using a chemical fertilizer before we would have no plant come September and we would get very little growth. Bryan and I are trying to get more growth out of september to get us to the next level. As for skills and knowledge we keep it simple, weeding burying vines and watering like everyone else does. Spend about 1/2 hour a day per plant per day. Its not about just big ones you have to look at growers new personal bests and the area they grow in. Thats were agro k wins hands down. I have nothing to gain by promoting agro k, I just beleive in the product, I like taking the guess work out of it.
drew

7/17/2006 8:09:15 AM

President - GPC

First year grower with Agro-K......SO far I have no compliants...Rapid growth/ recovery, A female on almost every secondary, I looking forward to recording the growth on the kin once it sets.....I have pretty good soil according to Craig.....well see. Good Seed, Good Soil, Hard Work, but dealt with Hail.....Good Luck

7/17/2006 8:54:36 AM

Mocksville, NC

my spayer is just a pump up one, then spray. I seen some really cool sprayers, and foggers though,That would cut my work in half but out of my leage

7/18/2006 7:28:32 AM

Montoursville, PA

Repeating this comment. If the Creator or Mother Nature would have wanted food and water going into the bottom as a first choice the pumpkin would now be growing that way with the bottom's, of the leaves being the tops.

When products hit the soil some, of all excepting minerals, will vaporize. If any bottom use of nutrients is important the underside, of the leaves may serve this function.

The leaf is designed, to funnel, any top application down the stem and directly, to the roots. If this were not the functon desired or needed the plant would have evolved, to deliver caught elements, to the underside, of the leaf.

The plant will do what it needs, to do, not what we think it should do. Me thinks sometimes we over smart ourselves into some unusual intellectual deductions.

7/18/2006 8:00:12 AM

Ontario

If we left it up to mother nature, pumpkins would still be producing 200 pound pumpkins. They were designed to reproduce. If it hadn't been for Howard Dill cross pollinating pumpkins back in the 70's we wouldn't have the Alantic Giant variety. If we didn't push these critters we still would be stuck at 400 pounds. If we didn't prune, bury vines weed etc and left it to mother nature we wouldn't have the weights we did today. So mother nature really doesn't have much to do with these critters. We enhance at every level. It has been proven that they absorbed nutrients thru the underside of the leaves. Theres nothing natural about how we grow these things. Huts in the spring, tarps to cover growing pumpkins, excess watering, excess ground prep, so why not foiliar feeding. I think you are way wrong here docpipe. Look at the top 100 pumpkins and see if you see anyone of those pumpkins that were grown by letting mother nature doing it all without any help.

7/18/2006 9:11:39 AM

Midwest

Nobody's fooling mother nature. That can't be done. The beauty of growing an AG is how the Creator has not limited every pumpkin to grow to X pounds in 70 days exactly... I'm amazed that a pumpkin plant can take in nutrients from the air and from food that lands on the leaf surface and transform those nutrients into the fruit and into the roots and into the ground.

7/18/2006 1:47:21 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Actually if a pumpkin is growing on a well composted soil, the leaf bottoms are facing the ground where naturasly rainfall will ocaasionally splash UP toward the leaf bottom. P & K nutrients haven't fallen from the sky (in sufficient quantity to argue) in more years than the current Cucurbita maxima have been around. N falls from the sky all the time.

Hence if we want to split hairs, the leaf bottom IS the more natural point of application for mother.

7/18/2006 11:34:11 PM

Midwest

N comes up from a well-composted ground too. ie. biology breaking down the composted materials producing Nitrogen in the process. Most is lost to the air but, the leaves must capture some of that N as it escapes. I've not heard anyone use a high N product for foliar feeding? 20-20-20 is about the only fert that people have mentioned. What about Argo-K? Does it apply N?

7/19/2006 12:17:51 AM

Mocksville, NC

Seaweed will create a Nitrogen fixing bactetia, that in turn, will pull Nitrogen right from the air

7/19/2006 8:44:25 AM

Mocksville, NC

Altho Drew is right on the money, Dwain has a very good point , after reading Lee Fryer Phd . His book discribed foliar feeding, foliar on plant, and this was done bye airial spray had a direct effect, soil applied has to go through the ion exchange + - to be useful to the roots to absorb. Your both right. The Author Has welcomed any Questions you might have on fertile soil, and plants.
And said feel free to contact him at.
Lee Fryer, President
Earth Foods Associates
11221 Markwood Drive
Wheaton,Maryland 20902 or American Horticulture Society, Mount Vernon Virgina 22121.
(Man this is a great site ive learned so much! Thanks John~ Ken)

7/19/2006 9:10:56 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Agro-K does employ a 10-8-8 early. Since the conversion of Phosphorus is skewed on all fertilizer labels, this would equate to a real world 10-5-8.

7/19/2006 9:35:32 AM

Follansbee, Wv

LOL Tom, it certainly is! My point was that Hoots just needed a simple answer, and look what happened.

7/20/2006 7:34:22 PM

President - GPC

Great posts......now I Agro-K on the undersides too....Last Year I only hit it with Miracle grow......Im really liking what Im seeing.......Big dark leaves, lots of males and females 12" of vine......now I have my first hand pollinated 5 lobe Reiss......Grow baby grow.......

Oh yeahhhh ..... 1 1/2 gallon professional sprayer from Lowes.......22.95....brass wand and a relief valve....I love it.

7/25/2006 9:25:46 AM