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Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Does anyone know at what percent pumpkins no longer continue to increase in benefit? I though I once heard 6-8%. But some growers exceed 10%. At what point won't there be an advantage?

Steve

11/13/2002 9:18:47 PM

Puyallup, WA

I've heard of several "heavy hitters" in the 15-20% range!!I am not sure if anyone can answer that last question.

11/14/2002 1:25:05 AM

Garden State Pumpkins

Hey Steve I think soil texture is what your after clay compacts and sandy soil leaches out nitrogen very quickly. OM corrects the compaction of clay and will stop the particulates from rejoining. OM has to be maintained as the worms and microbes do a good job in breaking it down..on the same token in sand black powder won't hold in much so it has to be replenished to keep it up...I'm at about 7% and I swear it looks like I'm planting in leaves but by clean up time it's just black dirt again!! Twenty percent has to be unbelievable but I've heard that too. Grow em Big!
Chuck

11/14/2002 5:51:41 AM

Utah

Chuck you're a stud !!! i remember not to long ago
you were asking a lot of questions ... now you're
giving great answers... i can tell you have done a
lot of studying.

11/14/2002 9:17:28 AM

Caceres, Spain

Bombs are falling down, take care of your heads, folks.

11/14/2002 2:17:58 PM

colorado

Bombs??

11/14/2002 4:50:54 PM

Garden State Pumpkins

Hey G1T, I take that as a compliment coming from you! Did you notice I didn't go anywhere near that cation exchange stuff!!! Still not to sure about that stuff!LOL Chuck

11/14/2002 5:42:20 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

I studied soils in school (turf science/agronomy). The role that OM plays in soils does not elude me. But some of the %OM claims I'm reading about don't jive with accepted agricultural practices. I'm not suggesting that folks aren't being honest. I'm just wondering if perhaps some have exceeded the optimum levels for cucurbits. (I've also been into Pro-Turf for 25 years & sort of strayed from my original course of studies)

CEC or Cation Exchange Capacity is a calculated value used to express a soils relative capacity to hold the cations of K, Ca, MG, & though not plant nutrients, H, & Na (hydrogen & sodium). In the normal queens english, CEC is a measure of a soils ability to hold & later release to a plants root system, those elements (nutrients) that are held in the soil solution. As a general rule of thumb, clay soils have a high CEC (over 22 or low leachability) & sandy soils are typically low (below 10 or likely to leach nutrients). Medium loam soils normally range between low & medium or CEC10-20. Organic matter & other amendmants such as calcined clay can be used to improve the CEC of soils to some extent. Ironically, high clay (high CEC) soils also benefit from the addition of organic matter or sand to allow for air & water inclusion. Yet this action usually LOWERS the CEC as a result. That's been the case here with my previously heavy clay soils.
We can work around any CEC by carefully selecting fertilizers of various solubility to better match the soils ability to hold nutrients & the plants needs at a given time.
Steve

11/14/2002 7:13:02 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Oh yeah, what bombs Don?

My own soil tested at 4.8% before I added 3.5 yards (so far) of Peat Moss, manure, & compost. I am very curious to see what the lab says now.

Steve

11/14/2002 7:29:22 PM

Choctaw, OK

I only tested at 2.0% organic matter in my patch last year. I still grew a 830 lb pumpkin (uow). I have heard a rumor that low % OM has a direct (positive) effect to % heavy....not sure how true that is but i have seen it tossed around some. Just something to ponder on. I dont have very high organic matter, and alot of my fruit over the years have been 40 lbs over charts consistantly...with a couple over 100 lbs.

I have been adding stuff just to correct soil structure, not so much to alter % organic matter.

Case

11/14/2002 8:08:48 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Available calcium is supposed to impact %heavy too. Case, do you remember how your C was? Mines a little low at 3403#/Acre. But I sell a good grade of calcium nitrate & treated myself to a jug already.

Steve

11/14/2002 8:50:58 PM

Garden State Pumpkins

Yo Steve, I'll take any recommendations on getting potters clay and rock right...Like I said this clay pit will be like a bath tub no matter what I do with the top OM...the pond filled to the top I'm sure that's what is gonna happen under these leaves...Still not sure about that cation stuff!!! LOL Chuck

11/14/2002 9:39:43 PM

Deer Park WA

Not to worry Chuck as the leaves decompose the sub soil/drainage will improve. I added tons of leaves and manure to my old #1 patch and after a year or so it was the most free draining of all the patches. I did have to keep adding stuff because as the leaves/manure decomposed it left a hollow area! For some reason in that patch I did have very high levels of P and K especially K, not sure if the high OM level caused it or if it was a fertilizer build up in the soil???

11/15/2002 12:31:28 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Chuck,

Take a look at this site for some details of CEC.

http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~blpprt/bobweb/BOBWEB23.HTM

Are you dealing with an impervious subsoil that is preventing drainiage? If so, use a two-man fence post auger type drill to dig below it in as many locations as possible. Then backfill the hole with gravel. Use of filter fabric is preferred around the gravel to prevent clogging in the long term. But any improvement you get will help.

If it's ground water, then raising the patch or moving it is the only practical solution.

A really easy way to improve clay soils (after ideal OM levels are achieved), is to till in massive quantities of calcined (not vitrified) clay. The particles look & feel like speedy dry or cat litter. But calcined clay is high temperature fired like a flower pot & lasts in the soil for years, is Ph inert, & actually has a respectable CEC of it's own. By holding soils open for air, big improvements are made to crops.

Steve

11/15/2002 11:08:30 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

HEY

Where's DON? I hope that bombs weren't falling on his head!

Steve

11/15/2002 11:13:18 AM

Garden State Pumpkins

Hey Steve, I originally thought it was ground water from run off down the hill. the bottom of my property was...I repeat was a wooded swampy lot...After removing the trees grading the lot and digging a pond in the lowest area...the pond didn't fill up...but every time it rained it filled and stayed full. The clay is impervious and after it rains the clay comtinues to leak water from about ten feet above the pond for days if not weeks...The patch is on a 30 degree downslope which I hope will be enough to run the water off the amended soil. I'm trenching it from high corner to low corner following the clay pan not really changing it's contour and hoping the landfill with give it suffient good soil depth and let the water run down the hill. Tried Gypsum in the old patch but drove my calcium out of whack so I could'nt adjust the PH to where I wanted, want to see if I can get this soil right within the next three years Thanks for the suggestions might just do the fence post holes with the gravel! Chuck

11/16/2002 11:56:03 AM

chuck i'm startin to wonder if you have thought..or should think about moving!everytime i drive by a farm or a house with nice open land i get envious and picture the pumpkins i could grow..

11/16/2002 12:11:31 PM

Garden State Pumpkins

Me Too! but the property around here is outrageous...Being taxed on a half acre so I'm gonna use my half acre!!! Might be planting on the side of a hill but I'm Planting! LOL

11/16/2002 1:51:50 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Chuck,
I think I'd do both. If my minds eye view of your situation is correct, you might benefit from a "cheater system" I've used on wet hillky land. Just build a trench & (with the trenched soil) berm system around the patch to collect & carry at least the surface water in a diverted patern around the patch & toward the pond. Lining the bottom & sides that face the patch with bentonite will slow percolation into the soil of the patch. Leaving the up hill (or outer edge) side unsealed will allow water in. Then line it with gravel to prevent colapse. Instant dry walking path & "gutter system".
Then again, a decent backhoe operator could probably drain tile the thing in a day.
Steve

11/16/2002 6:45:07 PM