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In the shade - PDX, OR

Guys - Just looking for some guidelines as to when to get my soil analyzed in the spring.

I can't do this right now since I am adding 7 yards of composted manure to my site. I am sure that it will need some lime (to balance the PH) and a lot of sand to get the tith right. I want to till it and get a sample off to A + L.
Can any one give me an idea of "when" they start tilling in spring?

I know that some of you all are still under snow, but here in the PNW it's been pretty mild and sunny lately.
Thanks,
CEIS

1/18/2003 9:04:41 PM

Puyallup, WA

I hope that you plan on attending the PNWGPG Spring Seminar on March 29th at the Best Western in Wilsonville, OR. We have invited Dr. John Hart from Oregon State University to address your question, "How to Evaluate Your Soil Analysis"
He will be discussing plant physiology as well.
I usually will disk the soil when it quits raining for a week....about April 7-10 and then plow in another week, add gypsum, lime and fertilizers and then rototill.

1/18/2003 9:30:37 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

CEIS,

If you can pull the sample before the manure goes in it will be OK. If the manure is well composted, it should be pretty close to neutrel. Therefore the lime (or other amendments) recommendations from the lab will consistant.

When I'm out testing my customers soils, I always prefer to get my samples before any other work is done. We can always judge results again later. A good rule of thumb is to always wait at least 2 weeks after any fertilizers, lime, or other amendments to pull soil for the lab. Longer if it's been dry.

Steve

1/18/2003 9:45:59 PM

In the shade - PDX, OR

Thanks Guys - I did a site search last night & came up w/some good info. It is really well composted - black, fine & earthy.

Stan - I will be there w/ analysis in hand. How long did A & L take to get back to you? I saw somewhere that the Modesto office turned it around in 3 days.

How much sand will I need to get the tith right? That clay is awfully sticky & clumpy.


Steve - I started out w/ heavy clay & virtually no organic. Two weeks sounds good. Got a question for you on watering but will start a new thread.

Thank you - Ceis

1/18/2003 11:40:39 PM

Puyallup, WA

The Portland Lab took 7-8 days minimum! I think that I am going to try the California Lab in Modesto this Spring.

Be very careful about adding straight sand to your soil.
I add a BioSolid from the Tacoma Sewage Treatment Plant
called TAGRO. It has about 20% sand....20% sawdust added.
How many sq.ft. are you planning to grow in this summer?
Seven yards is a "drop in the bucket"! Composted manure is the best "fix" for clay you will find. Composted leaves are good, too!

1/19/2003 12:22:55 AM

Covington, WA

I sent my sample to the Portland lab last Wednesday and the results were in my mailbox today. So it was a 10 turnaround total. Add sand to clay and you get bricks. Organic matter is the best answer for clay soils, gypsum will help as well, sand won't hurt as long as it's only part of the answer and not the whole fix. I use that Tagro as well and love the stuff, you may have something similar in your area, I would look into it. Looking at my soil test I have my work cut out for me. Organic matter isn't bad at 6.8% for a new patch with no amendments, but nitrogen is at 10 ppm, P is 2ppm K is 560ppm, magnesium 315ppm, Ca 2598ppm S 6ppm Zn 0.7ppm, B 0.5ppm, and pH of 5.7 whew. I'll be adding dolomite, granular gypsum, calcium nitrate, sul-po-mag, and all the manure and tagro I have time to get. The only micronutrient that was very high was iron at 152 ppm, so I think I'll skip the Ironite. This is all very different from my old patch, but then this has been pasture for the past 18 years and not a community garden that has seen amendments every year for the past 30 or more.

1/19/2003 1:31:45 AM

Caceres, Spain

Hi Ceis, My soil is sandy loam, but I've seen some clay clay soils in my life. My father in law has some farms with clay soil, but one friend of me has his patch onto the heaviest and hardest soil I ever watched, but it is fertile indeed. Organic matter is nice to amend it but it takes time to intimate with the clay, because the humic and fulvic acids need to get into the middle of the thin flat soil particles. I was told calcium from Gypsum is good to soften clay soils too, but also slow to act. Sand is nice as well and faster to operate, but you have to add a lot. You can improve a sandy soil with some clay, but you need much more sand to improve a clay soil. Look for a good stuff, because there are many kinds of sand. You will prefer a thin smooth sand.
I've seen in Joel's video when visiting Stan's patch the tagro Stan was talking about and it looks nice, and for him was great I believe. Is a pity not to be found over here.
Don

1/19/2003 1:56:35 AM

Iowa

Can someone tell me the address for A&L labs

1/19/2003 9:20:13 AM

Montoursville, PA

Have you folks checked your state universitie's Agriculture Services? Here we have Penn. State. The basic test with PH is only eight or nine bucks. Each additional specific test costs about $3.00 as an add on. A private lab was checked and found to be much more expensive.....like more than three times as expensive.

Futhermore my own tests were in real close measurements to the university's. Will do both again in the spring. If I hit as well as I did this fall I will be comfortable with my own readings and testing.

1/19/2003 10:00:55 AM

Montoursville, PA

Ceis My son in Portland NW area has brought his general garden patch up to 6.5 - 7PH doing hardly anything but leaves and compost. He has on occasion used kelp and fish for good measure. A nicer patch would be hard to come by. He uses a touch of lime in his compost as well as a smattering of kelp and fish as the pile is built. Took him about three or four years to go from backyard grass to nice garden.

His management is a cross between permanent mulch and open rows all mixed up to confuse the buggies. He will spread out and mix up plantings except for corn which needs support for polination. This is the son who did not elect to grow the AG. Looked like to much time and work.

Your basics are exactly the same where ever we are. Leaves, manures, Ironite or equals, calcium (maybe), basic organics like 9-18-9, 10-8-8 and a finisher 2-12-12. Fish and kelp rotated with the basic chemistry weekly. You test fall and spring for three basics and PH. Use cover crops. There is little else you can do to improve except add more manures and leaves. You will be amazed at the improvements using nothing but leaves and cover crop.

1/19/2003 10:25:55 AM

In the shade - PDX, OR

Farmer Joe - some info from a previous post from Andy W regarding soil test labs:
A+L West (modesto, CA)- http://www.al-labs-west.com/

A+L East (richmond, VA) - http://www.al-labs-eastern.com/

A+L Great Lakes (Ft. Wayne, Ind.) - http://www.algreatlakes.com

A+L Canada (London, ONT) - http://www.al-labs-can.com/

Kinsey Agricultural Services - http://www.kinseyag.com

Spectrum Analyitic - http://www.spectrumanalyitic.com

UMASS - http://www.umass.edu/plsoils/soiltest/

Penn State - http://www.agronomy.psu.edu/QualityLab/default.html

Norwest Labs - http://www.norwestlabs.com

Cornell - http://www.cce.cornell.edu/counties/Orange/soil.htm

Midwestern BioAg - http://www.midwesternbioag.com

Accutest Labs - http://www.accutest.com

This would be good info to have on a "resources" page.

1/19/2003 12:58:07 PM

In the shade - PDX, OR

I collected as many leaves as was possible in the Fall ~2 yards, and had a pickup of fresh horse manure. I knew that I wouldn't have enough organic so in with the compost. With the 7 yards of composed manure the OM content should be pretty decent. I know that I won't be able to get the soil perfect in one season, but will be working hard to do the best I can. I am in for approx 1K sqft this season.
Too bad there is no Bio-solids here in the Portland. If I had access to Tagro, I'd use it.
I'm a little leery on the gypsum addition since Chuck had a bad experience w/ calcium. (just in the back of my mind)
However, this will probably be one of the best answers.
Will wait for the sample to come back from the lab. 7 to 10 day turn is not bad at all.

I don't think I'll be able to get that much sand back there. Maybe I will just go for sandy additions around the root balls (4 x 4) so it is nice and loose.

1/19/2003 1:12:55 PM

Montoursville, PA

Ceis.....you appear to be doing the right things and nicely to boot. It is easy for you to get a cover crop with the growing days you have.

The basics will do more by a long shot than tweaking micro element things. Hammer it with leaves, manure, lime answering to PH adjustment needs and Ironite or similar with all the micro elements more or less in one bag.

Your guys on the West Coast as many others are foluliar feeding a pretty standard dose of liquid organics. I like Hollands Sea Products and C & J Products, Craig Lembke, cjlemb@webtv.net for the organic liquids. Others will swear by some one else. Frankly I think any consistant practice per your area growers should be followed.You need to look at several lines and begin tweaking into your own sound management of your little pumpkin patch. As you develop this and the patch together all of a sudden a hooting huge fruit will show up.

Funny how luck shows up for those who work and work to do just a bit better than a former personal best.

As to the lad who hit 1000 the first year I say congratulations. He had a good seed, a good garden and a management plan not to mention good coachs which he listened to. I think this event is to be noted as the outstanding one of the year.

1/19/2003 4:55:24 PM