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Rexburg, Idaho (brianchristensenmd@gmail.com )

My soil tests recommend a large amount of lime for Caclium supplementation. Around here no one carries it because our pH is fine. Can I use lime that brick masons use from a building supply store or Home Depot? I can order the stuff in but it will cost me more for the shipping then for lime.

2/1/2003 11:23:19 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Gypsum will raise calcium levels without affecting you roils Ph. Calium nitrate will also work, thought it also contain ammonia nitrogen so if you go this route, factor the N into your fertility program. Also products such as Nutri-Cal or Foli-Cal will also work.
You may need to contact an ag co-op to find these. Though if soils in your area are neutrel, I'd think even HD would handle these. But then, maybe not. Call a real ag supplier.

Steve

2/1/2003 11:30:22 PM

Garden State Pumpkins

Hey Brian, I used gypsum last year to help break up clay soil and then couldn't adjust the PH because my Calcium was out of whack..Gypsum will give the calcium you need. Chuck

2/2/2003 8:53:32 AM

Rexburg, Idaho (brianchristensenmd@gmail.com )

The problem is that I'm already high on the sulfer. The people at Kinsey's Ag tell me that gypsum is great for fine tuning the calcium level but need lime to correct gross imbalances.

2/2/2003 9:45:41 AM

Garden State Pumpkins

Hey Brian, Not sure what the gross imbalances are...do you have a soil test as far as I can remeber Lime has some trace elements but mostly calcium. and will correct the PH if it's low....Trace elements are available in many low NPK fertilizers that won't effect your PH...If sulphur is high only uses fertilizers that won't add any and it will eventually leach out. Be careful not to go out of balnce on anything sometimes takes years to get it back right....been there done that! Grow em big! Chuck

2/2/2003 10:11:00 AM

Western NY

even kinsey's will warn you against adding too much lime all at once to correct a huge gap in the pH. but i would still try to find some to throw on, even if it costs a bit to get a little. if you can't get any lime, try wood ashes. they will raise the pH about as good as lime will. not much calcium in ash, but you can suppliment with other calcium sources like steve said.

Andy

2/2/2003 10:42:32 AM

Garden State Pumpkins

Not sure if that's his problem seems his PH is fine...Maybe someone used sulphur to reduce it? or the natural soil is sulphur based that accounts for the 7.0 PH...Andy is the expert on soil results maybe more info would help.

2/2/2003 12:41:56 PM

Rexburg, Idaho (brianchristensenmd@gmail.com )

I'm trying to follow Kinsey's recomendations. Not much since in gettting your soil tested if you don't follow the recomendations. I asked about the gypsum and they said that it would be worthless until the Calcium was brought closer to expected range. Gypsum is 1/2 sulfur and already on the high side so I'm trying to avoid this. My pH is 7.4 but Kinsey's state that by correcting the calcium to magnesium ratio the pH will follow and correct itself. I have a calcium deficit of 1359 lbs/acre. So back to my original question is Lime they use for mixing concrete okay to put on the garden?

2/2/2003 3:04:09 PM

Long Island,New York

Brian...Im just curious and not trying to cause trouble in any way at all. but I'm kinda curious.....What big growers use Kinsey and whats the biggest grown on a Kinsey directed patch prep? I see alot of results come through various labs and growers take the results and apply thier educated additions and corrections, but I think people should look at the successes of the labs recommendations.....whats the biggest or most successful Kinsey patch prep?........G

2/2/2003 4:13:15 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Brian,

With a Ph of 7.4 any kind of Lime (calcuim carbonate) will be a very big problem for your situation. The Ph will go higher if you apply any Lime. Mason's lime is hydrated. It's OK to use on soils where there are no living plants especially if a quick INCREASE of Ph is desired. But you need the opposite effect.
Aluminum Sulphate will reduce PH, but add more sulfur. Calcium Sulphate (aka Gypsum) will add calcium, but will also supply more sulfur.
Calcium Nitrate will add the calcium you need without adding sulfur & the Ph impact will be minimal.

Please don't use the Mason's Lime. It's still just Lime. And that's NOT the answer to your problem.
Fireplace ashes will also raise Ph but that's also not what we need to do.

Perhaps you can post the entire soil test report here. Then we can drive with both eyes open & we might get where we're going.

I find it hard to believe that sulfur is too high to chance adding more. And not many soil scientists are as hung up on calcium to magnesium ratios anymore unless one or the other is on the edge for a particular crop.

Steve

2/2/2003 4:37:10 PM

Montoursville, PA

Brian............there is possible confusion in your report. That is not to find fault. If I were you I would hunt another soil test and if it comes up significantly different maybe even a third to be sure you are getting a good reading. I think that is evident from the different response you have gotten.

2/2/2003 4:43:38 PM

Covington, WA

If you can't add gypsum or lime to get calcium needed because of high pH and high sulphur levels I would suggest you get ahold of some calcium chelate or calcium metalosate. UPN UHS carries these products. The metalosate has the most available calcium. It's a bit spendy but I'm not sure what other alternatives you have. These are applied as a foliar spray directly to the plant and fruit as well. Calcium is essential and not especially mobile in plant tissues to application directly to the plant can help and the runoff gets into your soil.

2/2/2003 5:40:35 PM

Rexburg, Idaho (brianchristensenmd@gmail.com )

Glen,
Good question, I have no idea what the biggest pumpkins from Kinsey's is. Lets hear from those out there that use kinsey's. It would be interesting to know.
Brian

2/2/2003 9:50:41 PM

Rexburg, Idaho (brianchristensenmd@gmail.com )

847# in 2001
810# and 710# in 2002
Those are out of my patch

2/2/2003 9:51:41 PM

Rexburg, Idaho (brianchristensenmd@gmail.com )

It quite cumbersome to put the whole report here but I will so that we are all on the same page. The numbers in parenthesis are the "desired value"
pH 7.4
Humus content 5.3%
Base saturation Calcium (60-70) 53.43%
Base saturation Mg (10-20) 18.62%
Base saturation K (2-5) 22.1%
Nitrogen Lbs/acre 102
Sulfate lbs/acre 375
Phospahtes lbs/acre (500) 1105
Calcium lbs/ acre (6343) 4984
Magnesium lbs/acre (672) 1042
Potassium lbs/acre (909) 4020
Sodium lbs/acre (107) 198
Boron ppm 3.24
Iron ppm 236
Manganese ppm 85
copper ppm 2.1
zn ppm 64.8
Their recomendations are for urea 1.75lbs, ammonium sulfate 4.5 lbs, Calcium nitrate 7.25 oz, Calcium carbonate 149.25 lbs, manganese sulfate .3 lbs, per 1000 square feet. Neal Kinsey states that my potassium is so high because of the amount of manure/compost that I have applied the last several years.
I sent two samples in from different parts of the patch and the numbers are very similar so I doubt in error in the lab readings. Its just the question of the recomendations of lime. I emailed Neal and he double checked the recommendations and still stands by them.

2/2/2003 10:09:20 PM

Puyallup, WA

Here's my 2 cents worth, Brian. First, a 7.4 pH is too high for a good pumpkin crop....been there, done that!
My potassium did go sky high because I added many tons of chicken manure. No more manure this spring! Winter rains ought to reduce your pH and K slightly. I'd check it again in April before you add any ammendments. I'm with Steve, I'd add gypsum and Cal Nitrate after the April soil test.
You want a 6.8 pH!

2/2/2003 10:51:28 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Hey Brian,

This is a good exercise & should help to dispel some soil mystery when it's over!

Much better with the lights on & both eyes open. COOL!
Part of my job as a fertilizer company rep, is to interpret soil tests & program for correction (turf & ornamental primarily with occasional ag). I'm not reading this stuff out of a book or magazine. It's what I do. There is some controversy sorrounding the mg:ca ratio issue. Sometimes 2 different people will look at the same soil report & make different recommendations. That's fine so long as the grower & his crop doesn't suffer.

I couldn't know or care less as to what is available in your area for soil amendments nor why. I am going to recommend to you what I would do if this was MY soil & test report. Keep in mind please that my recommendations are in the spirit of soil & crop science & not convenience.
__________________________________

Sodium is at least twice as high as I would like.
To correct: GYPSUM @ 100+ Lbs/1000
__________________________________

Ph is 7.4 or .6 points higher than desired yet sulfur is allready a little high.
To correct: SEE BELOW
___________________________________

Organic Matter (Humus) is less than ideal.
To correct: Add boatloads of acidic organic material (but in this case, NOT manure) such as Peat Moss. (which I can get locally at low cost. That may not be an option for you, I don't know)
___________________________________

continued

2/3/2003 9:05:26 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Mn low. Neal & I are in agreement.

____________________________________

Apply ProMax or Biogain ( both T&O versions, seek ag versions if desired. They're out there.) or equivalent to speed organic decomposition of organic material. This is actually a soil biology issue that will probably inspire more debate, but that's OK since it's the best thing we can do this time of year anyway. Debate causes thought. Thought & debate gives rise to solutions & improvement of processes.
____________________________________

Peat will increase organic matter & decrease Ph as it decays. ProMax will hasten process. Gypsum will assist in causing the fallout of sodium chlorides & supply additional calcium without further exasperating an existing soil Ph issue as limestone would.
____________________________________

In addition to the basic NPK program, make applications of NutriCal every 7-14 days at 3 fluid oz per gallon of water as a foliar treatment, wetting rootzone area at the same time.
____________________________________

I don't know the Kinsley Lab. or Neal Kinsley. I have copied the details of your report off of this thread and am sending it to my commercial lab for a second (third, fourth, ???) opinion. Not to prove your lab is wrong. Nor to prove that my interpretation is correct. We are both correct in our own ways. But rather to gain further insight. I've posted my opinion in front of my labs intentionall7 & at the risk of being found wrong.

I'll repost when my Lab's opinion arrives.

Steve

2/3/2003 9:06:34 AM

Rexburg, Idaho (brianchristensenmd@gmail.com )

I need more information on the promax and biogain. I've never heard of them. Unfortunatly I put the manure on before the snow started (and the soil test results were back) so I've complicated that already. Peat here is expensive! so that is not really an option. I've been working on the organic matter for three years I started at about 1%. I've thought about straw or hay chopped and tilled in.

2/3/2003 9:24:27 AM

Garden State Pumpkins

I'm still missing the sulphur problem what was the recommended sulphate lbs per acre...From what I can tell from readings off the internet the sulphur readings from the lab are about as accurate as nitrogen readings? Is that true?

2/3/2003 10:10:05 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

ProMax & BioGain are officially refered to as "Plant Growth Supplements". Look at Boily's grower diary for his use of the Australian "Companion". Same stuff, but the Turf & Ornamental use product for American consumption. I found an Agriculture version but it wasn't ISO-9001 certified so I'm not going to endorse it. But there is probably one out there that I just don't know about.
ProMax contains Cold processed Sea Kelp extrcat like Neptunes Harvest. But it also contains 180 Billion benficial bacteria spores that innoculate the soil. Bacillus Subtilis, B. licheniformis, B. amyloliquefaciens, B. pumilis, B. megaterium, & Paenibacillus polymyxa are contained (yes, I looked those up!) Some of these help soils to fix nitrogen & other nutrients. Others like subtilius, innoculate the plant & help it resist Fusaria, Phytopthora, etc. Subtilis also has been proven to help plants perform under & resist drought stress. Lot's of cool stuff. We're on the edge of new soil biology discoveries. Boily is fair evidence of that.

continued

2/3/2003 2:04:38 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

That's 180 billion spores per lb. of dry material. The pound treats 1 Acre.

I spoke with the Lab. It seems that Mr. Kinsley's lab uses the "base cation saturation" (BCS) method of calculating recommendations. We use the more common "sufficiency level" approach. Both work OK unless it's a sand based soil in which case BCS is pretty useless. All public & institutional labs use "sufficiency level". As do many commercial labs.

CLC labs says (& I'll quote) "calcium levels are fine for all normal crop scenarios & lime would only worsen an already too high Ph condition". When I explained the desire for extreme "Giant Pumpkin growth", they acknowleged the desire for elevated Calcium levels & advised Gypsum. Since Kinsley was aiming for a 61% calcium base saturation point (therefore 2500 lbs calcium as an element per acre more than the nearly 5000 lbs there now) we can deduce that a little more than 200 lbs of gypsum will deliver a similar effect. I'll figure it out to the pound later when I have some time.
I still like the calcium nitrate plan. CN is 84,000 times more soluble than the calcium carbonate (limestone) & gives the grower some readily available Nitrogen & a whole lot more control.
I bounced this off another associate this morning. So far no one has opted for limestone given the 7.4 Ph.

Steve

2/3/2003 2:26:46 PM

Western NY

well, here's my take - first off, i gotta give steve credit for pointing out the different techniques that different labs use. this is what makes it almost impossible to compare results with different labs. kinsey in particular is known for giving numbers that will be higher than other labs. i think the point to be made here is that lime might not be a good idea in this case. pH is one value that is fairly consistant between labs as far as i know, though. 7.4 seems high, but clarence koch's 1049 was grown in soil that tested at a pH of 7.4

of the dozen or so other results i have from kinsey, brian's potassium was higher than most, but the calcium was within about 5% of almost all of them. the pH's range from a low of 5.9 to a high of 7.7, with most of them right around or just over 7. the main point that kinsey was trying to make was that the calcium to magnesium ratio in your base saturation was lower than most. now, i will say that i am lacking in my knowledge of soil chemistry interactions. there MAY be a way that adding lime will drop your potassium a little and add calcium in an available form. but, i think you do run the risk of taking your pH up a little more.

my advice? go with calcium nitrate, until pollination anyway. don't add any chemical fertlilzers. here's why - you're already way high in potassium. calcium nitrate will take care of the nitrogen, and you have a pretty good estimated nitrogen release anyway. plus, you have adequate phosphorous. a lot of growers are slowly switching to a more organic approach, and going with the fish, seaweed, and other natural goodies. good luck brian, and let us know what you decide to do.

Andy

Andy

2/3/2003 8:04:47 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

I think that part of Kinsley's recommendation was based in part on the fact that the potassium is so high. Mine is too, so I've been mulling this around. Excess potash will occupy soil cation locations that calcium & other nutrients could otherwise. Fortunately for me, our Ph is already low, so the addition of Calcitic Liestone was a no-brainer for a pumpkin patch.
Could it be that gypsum so hard to find in Idaho that the lab is worried Brian will do nothing just because finding the correct material is difficult? How hard would finding the correct material be? That's the funny part of this to me at least.
Brian, if you really can't find Calcium Nitrate &/or Gypsum, send me a private email. I can sell it to you if you have a credit card & even though it's going to be steep, I'll cover the freight bill. It's the right thing to do for a fellow pumpkin grower.
Steve

2/3/2003 8:38:22 PM

Rexburg, Idaho (brianchristensenmd@gmail.com )

Thanks for all the great input. It is much appreciated. I was hesitant to put the lime on before (thats part of the reason I haven't done it by now) but now, I'm pretty sure I will not be putting lime on. I think I can get a hold of some gypsum just need to figure out how much to put on. If I'm not going to follow their recommendations I guess I need to look for a different lab. I will also go with some calcium nitrate I have that and will need some nitrogen anyway this spring.

2/4/2003 1:06:21 AM