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Cedar Lake, IN.

I was told to use 21 Lbs. of Urea. Can I use alphafa pellets, if so how many pounds would I need?
Thanks!

4/11/2010 9:14:13 PM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

I would use bloodmeal over urea, urea has a high sodium content and will "stick with you" for some time. Alfalfa does have a nice nitrogen content, but I believe it will release as fast as bloodmeal.
I would be happy to look at your soil test if you dont mind and get an idea of what you need.

4/12/2010 9:42:52 AM

Cedar Lake, IN.

Tom, A&L suggested seven pounds per a thousand sq. ft. of urea. I would like to use organics were I can.
I did find alfalfa is 2-0-3 ( 1 lb. urea = 23 Lbs alfalfa). bloodmeal is 13-1-0.6
The cost for alfalfa and bloodmeal is ten times greater than urea. All this information I found this morning.
My wife said I can spend as much money on the garden and my dog as I want. But I must spend an equal amount on her. She's watching me with a smile.
Tom thanks for your reply

4/12/2010 11:03:46 AM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

I hate to contradict you, Tom, but urea has no sodium content to speak of. Its guaranteed analysis NPK is 46-0-0. It has a chemical structure of NH2CONH2, which = 46.6%N, 20% C, 26.6% oxygen, 6.7% Hydrogen. No sodium.

I found an interesting paper that compared the release of urea vs blood meal vs alfalfa pellets vs chicken manure:
http://soil.scijournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/69/6/1844

It showed, in part, that to get the same N release from Blood meal or alfalfa pellets you'd have to add roughly 2x the N as you would for urea. So that would suggest you'd want to add double the alfalfa meal N; so ~50 lb of alfalfa meal per 1 pound of urea to get the same available N.

I'm all for being "green" or "Organic", but the breakdown products of urea or any of the "Organic" N sources are the same: ammonium and nitrate. So from a soil microbial health standpoint the arguments against urea don't hold up for me. Add a bit less urea or stagger the additions and any potential problems are solved.

If one is worried about the bigger environmental picture of the "Organic" approach, that may be valid for urea since it is made from natural gas etc, but I also ask myself which is more green, shipping 1000 lbs of potential animal feed and dumping it on the ground or shipping 21 pounds of fertilizer?

4/12/2010 12:26:35 PM

Cedar Lake, IN.

Interesting...

4/12/2010 5:54:54 PM

why mess with 21 lbs urea when there is 82-0-0 ammonia instead of 46 -0-0 if your gonna burn might as well light it up

4/12/2010 6:01:36 PM

Buffalo, new York, USA

21 # of urea gives you approx 46# of Nitrogen
770 # of alpha pellets give you approx 46 # of niroge=$230
160 # of blood meal gives you Approx 46# of nitrogen=$320
The high price of organics????

I would question the original reccomendation of 21# of urea. What's your area???

4/12/2010 6:24:31 PM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

LOL Don! Spreading urea is easier, though. lol.

21*0.46 is actually around 10 lbs of N (Zander did the calc backwards).

I'm guessing that's spread over 2000 or 3000 square feet, not per plant (I hope). lol.

I used urea last year as my primary N source (also used some MAP for the P). Ended up with an 1169 and an 898.5 from the two plants I planted my first year out. Not much compared to some, but I was pretty happy with the results.

4/12/2010 7:45:59 PM

Paradise Mountain, New York

21 pounds of 46 percent nitrogen. Is just what it says it is. Bathabitat is wrong by saying 21 pounds is actually 10 pounds of Nitrogen. Kurty if your saying you need that much, 7 pounds per 1,000 square feet, I would just go and do what they say. You must have a lot of organic matter that isn't broken down and your pumpkins will not have enough N to grow.

4/12/2010 9:59:26 PM

Lloydminster/AB

21 pounds of 46-0-0 = 9.66 lbs of nitrogen but I failed math lol

4/13/2010 12:32:44 AM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

PumpkinBrat, you have a common misconception about what the N-P(P2O5)-K(K20) values on a fertilizer bag mean. I demonstrated in an earlier post in this thread how we arrive at urea being 46% N:

"... NPK is 46-0-0. It has a chemical structure of NH2CONH2, which = 46.6%N, 20% C, 26.6% oxygen, 6.7% Hydrogen."

Simple math will show that if something is 21 lbs total and 46% of it is N, then without question just about (21*0.46=) 10 lbs (9.7 lbs to be precise) out of the 21 lbs is nitrogen. To get 10 lbs of total N from alfalfa meal @2%N you’d need (10/0.02=) 500 lbs of alfalfa meal. That's just the standard way it's used, nothing to debate on that topic.

Nitrogen is actually the easy one of the 3 to interpret. P (P2O5) and K (K2O) are even more complicated to work out how much you'd need. Don't feel bad. It is confusing.

I'm realizing that the potential confusion is another downside of using non-organic fertilizers like urea. A few pounds plus or minus per 1000 square feet and you may have a problem. The "organic" approach makes it harder to over-do it (but you probably could if you tried, lol).

In all my posts thus far, on this thread and others, I think I've made the points I was trying to make about urea, so I'll stop harassing you good "Organic" folks. Your way has certainly been shown to work well too.

Good luck and grow ‘em big!

4/13/2010 1:10:00 AM

South East

only use urea if you know what your doing kurty. If you need N fast (20 to 40 days). The organics are preferable. Slow release and no risk of burning wich will happen is over applied with urea. When top growers use organics with great succes then you might want to follow. Talked to many great growers just like you probably did. Non of them used urea. Thats a big farm fert. You can do better on your patch..its not acres your doing.....

4/13/2010 4:14:20 AM

Saegertown Pa.

I have always used calcium nitrate to help keep the calcium up and give my self the nitrogen I needed. If you call the lab about your test they will probably tell you they want the total N spread out four deferent times threw out the growing year. I would give them a call and ask questions and let them now you want to go organic and if they want the N spread out threw the growing season.

4/13/2010 5:40:34 AM

Cedar Lake, IN.

Thanks to all. It seems we have some strong views on each side. The cost of organics is extremly high. Mother nature does a great job doing it her way.
Again thanks to all.

4/13/2010 7:55:48 AM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

bathabitat, thanks for correcting me, no offense taken at all.
Don, lmao!

4/13/2010 12:09:24 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

In the days following WW2 the world's burgeoning population would have starved were it not for urea.

Organic chemistry made America and the petroleum industries.

Salt indeces and pH impact vary greatly as do the form whether liquid or granular.

Let's see how this copies:

Source............................................Salt Index

Ammonium nitrate.....................................105
Sodium nitrate.......................................100
Urea..................................................75
Potassium nitrate.....................................74
Ammonium sulfate......................................69
Calcium nitrate.......................................53
Ammonia...............................................47
Diammonium phosphate..................................34
Monoammonium phosphate................................30
Treble ammonium phosphate.............................10
Superphosphate.........................................8
Gypsum.................................................8

4/13/2010 6:05:48 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

FYIW alfalfa pellets are decent soil builders in time but dog food is much more cost effective. Try Wellness vegetarian at Petco with a coupon. ;o)

4/13/2010 6:11:15 PM

Anamosa, IA BPIowegian@aol.com

Corn gluten meal is 10% nitrogen, plus it is a pre-emergence herbicide that works on small seeded weeds.

4/13/2010 11:15:39 PM

Picton,ON (j.vincent@xplornet.ca)

Urea is a much slower release Nitrogen source than Calcium Nitrate or my favorite choice, Ammonium Sulfate (21-0-0). Some things to consider are speed of release and when the plant needs it N. Urea applied to a field corn crop at the end of April provides most of its availability in late June and early July...totally wrong for our purposes. Calcium Nitrate is immediately available and is pretty well gone within 3 weeks...AMS is slightly more stable and is pretty well gone within 4 weeks...of course this all depends on moisture and soil temp. I generally recommend AMS applied mid May. Most of the N is gone by pollination time.

The key to growing a BIG AG is getting your nitrogen balance right, at the right time. The plant doesn't really care what the source is...it just knows its hungry.

On the other side of the equation, there is no question that the organic sources are easier on the soil biology...the question is, does the damaged caused by the use of the fertilizer out weigh their advantages....my thoughts are try to grow organic as possible...use granular ferts. sparingly, but where necessary. If you are actively working on your biology i.e. adding organic matter, compost and using compost tea, the biology will repair itself quickly enough you wont see any issues with the use of some granular ferts

John

4/14/2010 8:15:13 PM

South Bloomfield, Ohio

In my opinion, well said John. I have no problem using fertilizers in moderation along with patch rotations from year to year. The addition of gypsum helps to relieve the soil of unwanted salts which may accumulate over the years as well.

Ammonium sulfate is my choice as well, but I've used calcium nitrate as a substitute and for an addition of calcium.

4/14/2010 8:31:46 PM