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Canada

This past winter 2003, I mulched up all the leaves that had fallen off my maple tree in the back yard. about a 1/4 of the leaves whent into the patch and Broke down very nicely
in the patch there if any is only small black pieces of leafs yet in there i was very surprised how well the leaves broke down.

the rest of the leaves went into a pile in the back corner of my yard. the pile is about 4 feet high by 3 1/2 feet round and i was considering of building a compost pile from now till fall of 2004 and then this compost can be returned back into the garden?
whats the proper way to build a good compost pile? i turned all the leaves over today to find a million tiny red little worms just crawling around under the pile of leaves

but ya ive got allot of stuff i can add to the compost pile dureing the spring and summer and fall like coffee grounds egg shells, lettue, tomatoes cuecumbers all bascially left over stuff.

but ya if it can help the garden i mays well build a compost pile instead of sending it off to the land fill.

thanks

Dave

4/27/2004 12:29:00 AM

Ljubljana, Slovenia

I put all organic matter on the compost pile and next year in the soil. As a result the soil level gets higher and higher every year.. Anyway, the compost pile should be in a shaded place and above the ground for better aeration. You may construct the sides from pallet. Good luck,
Jernej

4/27/2004 8:44:32 AM

Ljubljana, Slovenia

One more thing, you may add some (none is better than too much!) chemical fertilizers and lime a couple of times per year. Fertilizers are nutrients for microorganisms and lime prevent pH to fall too low. This way the decomposition process is faster.

4/27/2004 9:01:10 AM

Montoursville, PA

He there! Go online and buy this book for five bucks second handed. LET IT ROT, Stu Campbell. It is plum full of proper advice and guideance.

Here is a good start. Use one third manures, one third other stuff and one third your earth. Use no synthetic fertilizer. Occasionally treat the patch to a fish, kelp and molasses treatment. Basically anything that once lived will rot and make compost.

There is nothing in synthetic fertilizer that ever lived or will ever support life. They contain nothing good. Their poisons and salts will sicken and kill your bacteria and your attempt to have a biologically alive compost pile.

4/27/2004 9:45:57 AM

Ljubljana, Slovenia

I disagree here Doc, all elements found in chemical fertilizers can be (they might even been in the past) incorporated into living beings. They are part of the cycling of elements on the Earth. However, we often exaggerate with their use and so they become “poisons”. Chemically they are salts, so if you apply them too much you get over salted soil. But they may be noxious even in lower concentrations because they reduce the number of different microorganism in the soil. They do not kill some of them but they give some microorganisms the opportunity to overgrow the others. The reason for this is that they (as for plants) represent nutrients for microorganism and some of them (usually the bad) are able to grow on them faster. The exactly same thing happens when the sea or a lake “blooms” because of high phosphates.
Anyway, last season the above situation happened in my patch because of my stupidity (it could have been pumpkin fever)... so the truth is: nothing is better than too much.
Jernej

4/27/2004 1:20:18 PM

Montoursville, PA

Some of what you say is correct. Synthetics however are non-selective killers. There is absolutely nothing in them that supports or creates life.

By non-selective killers we point out that not even the finest chemist will say that the killing stops with the target life form. Not a single element of biological support in any form is found in synthetics unless they are organic elements added to make them look and sound good.

What the like to do is point out that less than a certain percentage of biological life is killed in some tests. This means that in some tests a whole lot more difficulty was noted. There is never any acknowledgement of biological forms that get sick and become partially non functional and die slowly to avoid the percentage of life also killed but not mentioned at the short day measurement hour.

There is never any mention that as the poisons work up the life chain they become more severe. This is to say the worms eats sick but still living bacteria. The worm causes the presence to be more and stronger posions. The bird eats the worms. The bird eats and stores more poisons now stronger and in greater vollume because it is a stronger animal. The bird gets sick and the Bob Cat easily catches it and others like it. The Bob Cat Dies from eating sickend natural members of it's food chain. The real problem started with the weakest link the bacteria poisoned by synthetics....be they fertilizers, insecticides or fungicides.

It is not really hard to find these facts in the internet. One needs to read just one or two good books or study just a few web sites to establish the truth for one's self.

4/27/2004 3:05:10 PM

Ljubljana, Slovenia

Doc, this thread ended like our private conversation, but I am sure that Dave will get some ideas.

I agree with the problem of accumulation of noxious (poisonous and un-degradable) chemicals in the food chain.
However, synthetic or chemical fertilizers are not noxious chemicals and are not harmful if applied in appropriate doze. They are present in all kinds of natural manure. Let me give the example of over fertilization problem that I had last season. In fact it was due to chicken manure not to chemical fertilizers. But still the consequence was the same. High nitrogen and phosphorus salts present in the manure (they are present in a pure form in chemical fertilizers) over salted the soil (yellowing of the leaves). Bigger problem was that microorganisms grabbed the chance and used nitrogen and phosphorous for explosive growth. The heath is a by product of every life process and in my case the microorganisms grew so fast that the soil warmed above 60°C. Still the worst was to come.. The biggest problem with over fertilization is, as we agree, the resultant disappearance of beneficial microorganisms, which are overwhelmed by the opportunistic ones that take advantage of high levels of nutrients. So, I lost their support for the rest of the season and I hope they are back now. Finally, I absolutely agree that they are crucial for good soil and chemical fertilizers are not. Jernej

4/27/2004 5:03:31 PM

Deer Park WA

Salt of the Earth, all things need some intervention when growing Giants.

4/28/2004 1:39:33 AM

Montoursville, PA

Gad's ............You may be right but I see no single instance where absolute effort is or has been made to up the biological health to the point of total health without the presence of synthetics. This has been done in many other growing situations of fruit and vegetables both in large and small scale.

We have now screwed up the word organic so badly that few know the meaning. Fewer still know and understand the original meaning.

Very few growers are leading in their practices. They are following. Following the practices of the synthetic systems suggested uses. I am utterly amazed that so many would work so hard to build high humus contents naturally and then continue to just burn out the bacteria and higher life forms that would make that effort even better if not poisoned or killed down by what we add to the mix after the build up. Few including myself know factually where the next step in healthy patch would take us because the biologicial growth is not given the chance to continue in it's development, to that next level. Sustainable management, of soil, is so close yet so far away at this hour for so many.

If we were all students of the soil health as much as we worry about how many ounces of some synthetic at what specific time will cause how much un-natural growth we would surely not have so much resistance to the words of wisdom coming to us from thousands of years ago.

It's the words of wisdom coming from the school of chemistry and the mono culture since about the 1940's that has become gospel. This is now begining to change and turn back to the healthy patch as it must.

4/28/2004 10:51:33 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Man has grown Pumpkins for thousands of years. William Warnock grew one to 400 lbs in 1900 & then bettered that in 1903 to 403lbs. We can presume these were organically grown. That record stood until 1976 when it fell to 451 lbs.

The next 27 years saw another increase of 1000 lbs over that.

I've not the time to debate synthetic vs organic today.

But let us consider the record itself when arguing the virtues & dilemas created by science. The record is verifiable.

4/28/2004 2:20:17 PM

40n 74e

"My grandmother impressed upon me as a young boy, when she said "The most important part of gardening is to feed the soil, to attain better performance and natural disease resistance".
That advice has won Mary and I, using Alaska Bountea over 282 first place and grand-champion ribbons in quality and giant vegetable categories, 18 State and 9 Guinness Book World Records."

-Quote from John Evans www.alaskagiant.com

That says a lot to me right there...

4/28/2004 3:09:35 PM

Mill Bay, British Columbia

Dave, sounds like your soil enjoyed consuming the leaves and I just love that you have black leftovers with lots of worms to complete the process. Keep doing what you are doing and simply add any other organic scraps right into the soil during the "off season" and perhaps start or build a composter to fit your needs. We had an issue with rodents in our composter so decided to dig in our compost wastes into the patch soil instead and am glad we have do so. Follow the Doc's advice and keep it organic and as pure as you can and the results come.

Later/Glenn

4/29/2004 1:06:06 AM

Benton Ky

I was just curious has anyone tried composting kudzoo foilage in their pile? I read a book that was for organic tomatoe growing and the guy swore by the stuff. I have never used it for fear of getting it started on my place its hard to get rid of once it starts.

4/29/2004 10:55:09 PM

Montoursville, PA

If you know this plant to be invasive why take the chance. There are to many plants out there to fool with a trouble maker. If there is something special in that invasive plant try making a tea to extract the valued elements.

4/30/2004 12:22:20 AM

Roanoke Il

When building a compost pile one should go brown green dirt brown green dirt. brown being leaves, straw bark news paper shavings, ect carbon based items. green being grass clipings weeds pumpkin vines ect. things high in nitrogin. dirt is the stuff from your ground which has the micro organisms which will break down your soil.The layers should be around 6 inches of brown 6 inches of green 2 inches of dirt. One can put organtic things in it as they want but the things higher in carbon will take longer to break down wood has 50:1 ratio not reconmended. not put meat into a compost pile will bring unwanted rodents. the more one mixes ones compost pile the faster compost is made. if the weathr gts dry water your compost. don't over water it keep it moist. If you need larger amounts of compst and you don't want to wait call your city goverment ask if they have a compost site many do where you can get the compost for free. If you do get free compost from the city ask them hoe long it take them to make it if it takes less than a year you should pass on the free stuff normally the weed killer that are added people lawn haven't had time to break down bad thing. hope this helps.

4/30/2004 8:13:03 AM

Canada

WOW, Thanks a bunch for all the information guys.

later Dave.

P.S I just grabbed 5 pallets from work purchased some lumber and built myself a nice large compost container
it sits in the very corner of the yard under a tree so its in a very well shaded area.

The first 5" bottom is bascially a bunch of left over half rotten leafs from last year on top of that i dumped a good inch of coffe grounds then about 3" of dirt. my first lawn moweing was done this mourning and all the clippings were added ( approx 6") and i once again covered it in roughly 2" of soil.

once the fall comes around i'll be looking forward to tilling in my "FREE" compost pile from this year in hopes to building my soil better in the patch for 2005 grow season

thanks again for all the help and great information

dave

5/8/2004 11:09:40 PM

Otis Orchards WA.

Dave, Checkout this site, it has some good info that should help also.
http://www.solidwaste.org/combins.htm

5/9/2004 1:41:51 AM