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Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

I recieved this article today via one of our industry trade partners. It speaks to the advantages of combining Abuscular Mycorrhizal Fungi (AMF) with conventional commercial (synthetic) fertilizers.

The lessaon: Don't get too hung up on excluding one for the other because the best results in this case were had when combining the 2 protocols. In other words, Coated slow release synthetics combined with Mycorrhizae Fungi delivered better results than all organics or all soluble synthetics.

More of this testing is in the works at other Ag Schools so we'll hear more as time goes on.

I'm not shocked.

____clip begins here__________________________

Should you select organic or inorganic fertilizers to grow containerized plants in mycorrhiza-inoculated fertilizers? Do fertilized plants grow better in media containing mycorrhiza?

A recent study by Texas A&M University researchers reveals new benefits in incorporating the fungal organisms in growing media. Among them: Because mycorrhiza increase nutrient uptake by plant roots, less leachate may be present in growing media for runoff into the nursery.

Lucilla Amaya Carpio, a graduate student at Texas A&M University, conducted the study under the guidance of A&M professors Drs. Fred Davies Jr. and Michael Arnold.

In the study, to be published in the Journal of the American Society for Horticultural Science, plants grown with an inorganic controlled-release fertilizer plus mycorrhiza performed better than plants treated with the fertilizer alone and with an organic slow-release fertilizer with and without the fungal organism.

continued

6/2/2004 8:32:57 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

"The dogma that AMF [abuscular mycorrhizal fungi] are better for OSRF [organic slow-release fertilizer] than ICRF [inorganic controlled-release fertilizer] does not always hold water," Davies told The Post.

The study was conducted in a realistic nursery setting during the late summer months when temperatures in containers reached 112 degrees F. The researchers measured plant growth, marketability and leachate of bush morning glory (Ipomoea carnea subsp. fistulosa) growing in 2-gallon containers. Though several fertilizer formulations were used in the experiment, P (phosphorus) levels were equalized. High fertility, particularly P, will depress AMF.

"However," Davies added, "AMF does very well with slow-release fertilizers."

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Full text article here:

http://www.plantfind.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=1346

Steve

6/2/2004 8:33:09 PM

Montoursville, PA

Now if we could just grow pumpkins in containers this study may be of some value. There is no realtionship to biological soil content whatever in this study. The term growing medium in a greenhouse study does not relate to soil. It does not relate to sustainable anything.

It has never been doubted that short term gains can come form the use of manufactured fertilizer. It all leads to West Virginia crop rotation. Ten years of corn and a hundred years of jack pine.

6/3/2004 1:40:21 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Why can't we grow pumpkins in containers?

6/3/2004 3:39:51 PM

Sheridan . NY

there is no chemical material that work s better that what the good earth has gave us--- natural source products ---i can mix fish seaweed and molasses to make a great feed for any type plant-- any one wants to grow --I feed from the top--foliar-and feed the root zone-- bio .. I can add a natural source mined calcum carbinate or 10 8 8 all natural source the choices go on and on----myccorrhiz is all way there -- a long with bac--enzymes ---

6/3/2004 4:06:32 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Craig,

I do too. What's natural about 10-8-8? Urea is the largest ingredient. I studied soil biology too. But I'm not talking about soil. I'm talking about growing things in a soiless mix.

But perhaps I failed to make my point. Bear with me since we're not connected on this. I wholly understand & support sustainable agriculture. But that isn't where I was going with this.

We're growing a "crop" here that will live for 150 days. So the rootzone needn't last more than that for the purpose of this conversation.

I would very much like to follow the lead of some of the growers who are literally throwing away their pathogen laden soil every year, & replace it. Quite a few growers today have a majority of their root system in Promix BX or similar soiless Peat based rooting media. Can anyone remeber the grower who does this?

And this is exactly what Texas A&M researchers were doing.

They discovered that an all organic soiless mix (Like Promix) that is innoculated with Mycorrhizae & blended with engineered slow release synthetic fertilizer (Osmocote as an example) outperformed the soluble & organic fertilizers used both with & without innoculants.

After seeing how many patches are "finished" after three years, I can't help but want to try growing on a concrete pad, with a mafia block bin-wall all loaded up with fresh innoculated Promix every year. No soil at all.

I am certain that if we had a "pot" that was large enough to wholly contain an AG, we could use commercial greenhouse skills to produce plants more vigorous & healthy than those grown in open ground.

6/3/2004 5:36:35 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

Geez...jumpin' Steve again.
Sure is gettin' old.

6/3/2004 9:05:14 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Fun though.

6/3/2004 9:46:02 PM

Mill Creek West by god Virginia

hey doc some of us up here in west virginia are trying to grow them there orange blob things he he i hate jack pines!!!!!!!!!!!but i am trying to go all natural soil wise so i guess im stuck in the middle lol

6/3/2004 11:17:38 PM

Indiana

wow...such a complicated issue too!

Could you explain the Jack Pine comment to me Doc? I am not picking, I have never heard that before. Is it a joke directed at Kieth who always takes jokes well, or is 10 years the limit on corn? Reason I am asking is because I know amish farmers that grow corn year in and year out on the same soil. My old patch was in a field that was corn for 14 consecutive years. (I talked him into oats this year for a rotation). And he was still getting a good yield on it. Just kinda curious....noone take offense:-)

I dont want in on this battle :-)

Tom

6/4/2004 1:09:54 AM

Appalachian Mtns.

I just looked at the Agro-K 10-8-8, label online..."Agrobest 10-8-8", saved it if anyone would like to see it.
It's not all natural...
8% Urea nitrogen
2% Ammoniacal Nitrogen
8% P2O5 Phosphoric acid
8% Soluble Potash
It's mainly urea....how is that natural? Sorry but folks shouldn't make claims that are just not true, that's the same as the snake-oil salesman.

6/4/2004 6:00:02 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Oh boy. This thread wasn't meant to incite a riot. The idea was to expand on a subject that came up at Niagara.

I think it was Steve Deletas (or one of the 3 Hitters who addressed the group & it wasn't Jerry who I've since talked to several times) who said his rootzone is now mainly soiless mix that he removes & replaces with some frequency. I tried to speak with him about this on Poker Night, but social things being what they are......beer.....cards......other folks wanting to socialize.....the subject was lost.

This thread needn't turn ugly. The intent is to explore a new concept in growing that might not do anything to benefit native soils. But it darn sure might grow very large pumpkins without causing harm to the underlying native soils.

And that is why we come here. To learn about growing big pumpkins. I don't think it matters a rats butt if we do it in soil, in soiless mix, in calcined clay, in lava rocks, in Rockwool, in Coconut shell fragments, in sand, in clay, or up on the damn roof.

Steve

6/4/2004 8:28:02 AM

Brillion Wisconsin

Steve,

You forgot hydroponically in the basement. lol

6/4/2004 8:38:12 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Here is a visual of my "container concept".

http://www.stambaughs.net/recycle.html

6/4/2004 10:32:54 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

I'd then use these "Mini Mafia Blocks" to make a bin & fill the bin with this:

http://www.premierhort.com/website/products/aproducts/aprodprof/aprodmycorise/amycorisebx.html

6/4/2004 10:45:49 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

I just finished exchanging emails with Craig Lembke.

I want to clear the air on something right here & now.

This negativity should never have happened. I posted a link to a very informative article by Texas A & M about the beneficial relationship between Mycorrhizae & soiless potting soils & their relationships with the 3 most common sources of NPK.

How this ever got turned into a soil & fertilizer fight I'll never know. LOL

But let's look at several important facts.

>>There is no "perfect fertilizer". Period.

>>Organic isn't always better. Used alone, it might not be enough for AG's .

>>Synthetic fertilizer alone isn't very smart either & in the wrong hands is actually very dangerous to plants & soils.

>>Dwaine is still rip snorting mad at me.

>>Now Craig is too.

*******Next*******

Craig's Agros-K program is very nice. It's used by a lot of great growers that all have much better personal bests than mine.

The Agor-K program does use organic materials. But it isn't all natural or all organic. Anyone who can read a label can see this. So what???? About 99% of the people on this message board all combine naturals & synthetics.

I like the Agro-K program so much, that after speaking with Tom Beachy & Jerry Rose about it, I re-engineered my own fertility program. It now looks a lot more like Craig's program. Why? Because who ever wrote that program knew what they were doing. My hat's off to the author. Was that you Craig?

I am using different source materials that better reflect my own soil test results. But that's pretty easy for me to do since I work for a massive fertilizer company. Most folks would do well to use Craig's Agro-K program as it is since modifying it isn't safe or easy for most people to do.

Are we all right?

6/4/2004 12:23:17 PM

South Hill, Virginia

Steve,

It's a shame you have to do so much apologizing for just sharing some information that some of us may find interesting.


Brent

6/4/2004 1:35:22 PM

Sheridan . NY

As steve said we have exchanged emails and also phone calls we found that we do the samething but --he at base ball fields and estate greenerie and me as dirt farmer growing fruits and vegtables --the pumpkin side of things have slowly happen in the last 25 years as me and others have tryed this and that and finally seen our weighs come up and seen the magic numbers of 1000 and and 1367-1370 from the agro-k program-- IM sorry to any one i have made mad or done some wrong for--i have try to serve--answer and help when i could --i will no longer both any one on the message board ----craig lembke

6/4/2004 4:34:03 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

I will apologize here publicly for using the term "snake-oil salesman" in my post referring to the 10-8-8 product Mr. Lembke advocates use of. That was wrong of me and I'm sorry for sounding so mean and harsh towards Craig. He is by all accounts a fine man with many friends, and certainly a lover of, and promoter of, the growing of giant pumpkins.
I am sorry again for belittling a fellow grower...I did not follow the Golden Rule, that I teach my children to live by.
I do stand by my statement however, that the 10-8-8 is *not* an all natural product as claimed.

6/4/2004 4:49:52 PM

Deer Park WA

Hang in there Craig you are an inspiration to many and I too am a "dirt Farmer" that has come to realize the road to success is paved with natural fertilizers. I havent used your products (yet), but I do kind of mimic your fertilizing program.

Gerry Gadberry

6/4/2004 4:59:18 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

I've had a couple good conversations with Craig on this now. We have much in common & I look forward to more such correspondence as our plants allow. LOL

There is nothing to "Hanging in there" since our programs are almost identical. I rely a little more on early season granulars (Certified OMRI organic by coincidence only) to correct local Ca & K deficiencies. Later in the season as vines take over, I too have to spoon feed foliar nutrients.

Craig has found that K locks up in soils out his way. He, Agro-K, & a long list of very fine growers have come up with a balance of elements to apply foliar that avoids the soil binding issues. Here again, some are OMRI certified & some are not.

With the possible exception of Dwaine & Gerry, not one contributor to this thread is managing fertility from a 100% Natural Organic standpoint. Nor do any of us ever expect to. I know for a 100% fact that no amount of organicly sourced material *that is available today* will cause the sudden potassium push we all need to finish strong late in the season.

When it comes time to select synthetics for foliar application (as both Craig & I agree is required & recommended), knowlege of local soils & a printed lab report from a competent lab are mandatory. This isn't a new concept. But since conventional "Dirt Farmers" are in business to turn a profit, they can't apply foliar nutrients daily. Not from any source.

So this concept isn't proven by Dole or Monsanto financed University research projects with their shiney published & peer reviewed summary documents.

What we have instead is some hobby growers who are pushing the bar farther up than ever thought possible just a few years ago.

I'll take it.

continued

6/6/2004 8:23:36 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

For the record, this in no way discounts my theory of "Non-Dirt" farming. Real soil is made from decayed rocks which are mineral & not organic at all. To grow "stuff", mineral soils need an organic matter constituent. More is generally considered better. My "controversial" theory advocates eliminating the non-organic mineral soil elements entirely & growing in a 100% Natural Organic Peat based soil medium instead. Delivering the major & minor elements can be either organic or synthetic. But the Texas A & M study has found that under their research, Mycorrhizae was found most beneficial to this particular protocol when using "Coated Slow Release Synthetic Fertilizer". That's all the study was intended to do.

The support of soil bacteria & biology wasn't part of the study since no one wants worms in containers in greenhouses.

What I think someone lost sight of here is that we need only take the parts of these studies that apply to us. And 4" plastic pots of Begonias & Impatiens aren't what we're growing. Quite frankly, we're not growing bacteria either unless there's a new weigh-off for soil bacteria that I haven't heard of. But since the real dirt farmer absolutley gains advantage from biologically diverse soils, both Craig & I sell & advocate the use of quality organic amendments & "Bacteria Starters".

Read that again: *BOTH OF US*

Who ever said otherwise needs to re-examine their own teachings & observations through some non-colored lenses.

Steve

6/6/2004 8:23:48 AM

Kenyon, Mn.

Hmmmm, Lets get back to what Steve was actually trying to convey here, AND THIS TIME...I'm WITH TREMOR!!!LOL
Hydro is such an old technology, brought to light again a few years back, the whole idea is that the plants do not have to develop a large root system in order to feed.The Idea of growing this way is a benefit to those of us who are concerned with our soils health,Due to environmental concerns regarding the reduction of water consumption and the worries of indiscriminate use of nitrates and other fertilizers/herbicides in soil based agriculture.
With soil-less gardening we can control and enhance all of the plants basic needs, we even have the advantage to ensure the root systems are receiving enough oxygen. When growing plants in soil the plant has to divide it’s energy between upward and downward growth. A hydroponically grown plant uses the majority of its energy growing upwards as all it’s nutrients requirements are all readily available.hydroponically grown plants will grow between 2 to 4 times quicker than those grown in soil.I have seen some fantastic results, and have cosidered it myself, as an experiment. I wish we had the digital camera about fifteen years ago, or the man was still alive, A good friend of mine in Missouri had , what he called his "Barnzi" peach tree, grown in a horse trough, on wheels, that he would roll into the barn with his livestock in the winter, and back out again in the spring, heigth, about 16 foot, peaches..Heck Yes, His wife and himself simply loved peaches. I didn't ask at the time, all I remember was the medium "looked" like limestone gravel. I will try to contact his son to find out more, but he had a holding tank and pumped the nutients through the horse trough at intervels.At the time;however, I know he was using an organic mix of critter nutrients!LOL
Just saying, High Tech..NOT, Results...Enough to keep a nice old feller and his wife in cobbler and jam.

6/7/2004 9:20:18 AM