Message Board - BigPumpkins.com

Long Island,New York

What did I miss? There's a problem?..............G(Enthusiasticly celebrating the passing of the old year a little early)

12/31/2001 11:53:47 AM

Charleston

Southeast

I could not agree more with Casey. Should the Mombert squash be reclassified?

12/31/2001 12:52:53 PM

Indiana

Cant be reclassified now!! Too late for that fortunately or unfortunately which ever way you slide.
Tom Beachy

12/31/2001 1:31:34 PM

Water (John)

Midway City, California

Casey--- if all green was a true squash what color would be a true PUMPKIN? =========Water

12/31/2001 2:12:21 PM

canal winchester ohio

Here's hoping the new year brings in a better
squash-vs-pumpkin judging then there has been in years past.
But then who knows, the next world record might be "GREEN"
.......Paul

12/31/2001 3:03:07 PM

Junior

Ankeny, Iowa

I think all greens and grays should be squash and all other colors should be pummmpkin.

12/31/2001 3:03:40 PM

Len

Rush, NY

I think Squash should be Green or Gray, and all others Pumpkins. However, since you can't tell the difference between some fruit entered as Pumpkins and those entered as Squash the most practical solution is to adopt the IOWA rule. That is, "The heaviest fruit win regardless of color". Apply that rule to both Local Site and Overall GPC prize money.

12/31/2001 3:51:22 PM

hey you

Greencastle, PA

AG's are half squash, half pumpkin. I think the color jugeing should be the same. If the fruit is over 50% green it's a squash, if it's over 50% orange it's a pumpkin. The only problem would be for the fruit that are 50/50.
Tom

12/31/2001 4:24:41 PM

canal winchester ohio

Tom, that's where the problem lies, "WHO" would say what is 50%. When you play with percentages you always get in trouble. That's why I like the way we do it in Circleville.
Simply put " Biggest Fruit Wins" . But I do think your right in your statement that there is a little "squash"
in all the Giant Pumpkins grown today if you trace it back far enough.................Paul

12/31/2001 5:21:29 PM

Long Island,New York

If opinions count, here's mine. The easiest thing is to go by weight alone...but I'd prefer to keep squash as squash, all others as pumpkin.I resent "all others" being considered a "squash"...when a "real squash"(all green or grey,base color green/grey, fruit green at day 30) is so much more definitely a "squash" than today's "pumpkins" are definitely "pumpkins".I would like to see a day when I can enter my green squash with the pumpkins for the biggest weight...OR....enter it against other true green/grey squash for prize money with respect it deserves. To classify a fruit by the grower's last name or the size of the fruit--which is what is being done today--is not fair at all.
P.S.. Iowa is fine...they all know the rules before they get there with the fruit...where Iowa screws up is when they submit Iowa fruit as GPC pumpkins to Hugh Wiberg when they are GPC squash.

12/31/2001 6:01:48 PM

mark p

Roanoke Il

All green is A squash and the rest are Pumpkins rule is the only Way to go. Just my 2 cents worth. G..I don't think we will ever see the day that squash command the the prize money that pumpkins do at the weighoffs...mark

12/31/2001 7:25:31 PM

Long Island,New York

I dont think we will ever see that either Mark, and to be honest i dont think we should , as orangish is more resemblent of Halloween and thats what brings in the crowds and ultimately the sponsors who fund the hobby.But there should be a catagory at all weighoffs with some prize money and you shouldn't be mocked as a lesser grower for growing a squash.....its much harder to get a really big squash than a really big pumpkin......G

1/1/2002 12:57:27 PM

Case

Choctaw, OK

Water...a true pumpkin would be any color but all gray or green...like most of the growers have posted under this subject. Most growers would like to see all green or gray is squash and the rest pumpkin, but ideally, it would be a good compromise if the heaviest weight wins regardless of color. Two years in a row now, I have had pumpkins develop a light spotty shade of green on the outer skin...I wanted them to be classified as pumpkins, and they should have been, but they were regarded as squash. Instead of placing in between 10th-15th place with those two pumpkins, I have gotten 2nd and 3rd respectively the last two years in the squash competition.... for people who have all green/gray squash, they felt like they were, well, ripped off in a way.... since my pumpkin was bigger than there squash. I don't want to take away someone's achievement or the place in the squash competition that is rightfully theirs because of a color change of my pumpkin, which I could manipulate if I wanted to and take first in the squash competition every year with a pumpkin (unless mark pistono grows a big a** squash!!). The thing is, you can manipulate the color of a pumpkin (not sure about a squash) and you can give yourself a better chance at prize money in the squash competition instead of placing at least 10 spots lower in the pumpkin competition.... I see that as a reason why all green/ gray fruit are squash and the rest pumpkin. I do not suspect anyone has done this and I don’t know if any one would….I merely pointed out logical reason and support for my opinion.

Regards

case

1/1/2002 2:43:25 PM

Bantam

Tipp City, Ohio

I'll throw in my 1 cent worth. I would like to see just the largest fruit (pumpkin/squash) takes the cake. But I have never heard of a "Squash" festival. When people think of pumpkin color I think the majority of the people would choose orange. Howden, Conn. field, Jack-b-little are pumpkins. Blue Hubbard and butternut are squash. Atlantic Giants need a separate class...Tom

1/1/2002 8:51:52 PM

Gads

Deer Park WA

Color requierment, Pacific Northwest Giant Pumpkin Growers Site Rules. Section 4 "To be eligible for the heaviest pumpkin, the entry must be a minimum of 75% white to cream-yellow to orange in color. Other color combinations will be considered squash. A method available to help the judges determine a pumpkin from a squash will be to lace a plastic transparent grid divided into ten 2-inch squares on the specimen in seven pre-determined locations. the determination will be made by the judges and will be final". I had the honor of helping lift Momberts world record 1097 squash, and the Emmons 1262 pumpkin (as well as everyone elses) onto the scales at Canby, these two fruit were as different as night and day color wise, all the same techniques were used to create such fine specimins. I believe the dilema is it's the Halloween season, and people want PUMPKINS, squash are cool, but are an "Okie" away geneticaly (sorry Pappy):} from pumpkins......

Happy New Year fellow giant fruit growers......Gads......

1/1/2002 10:04:04 PM

mark p

Roanoke Il

Gads The problem is that not every gpc site follows a grid style of judging pumpkins. mark

1/2/2002 5:25:28 AM

Utah

most of you know where I stand -

pumpkins are ORANGE ORANGE ORANGE !

1/2/2002 11:00:14 AM

Pappy

North Ga

I don't care what color mine might be. I just want a giant anything! Of course I have never been to a weigh-off, or in a competition. Just working out in the patch and watching these amazing plants grow satisfies me tremendously! I feel for you all though. I'm sure the color issue is very important and I hope it gets worked out for ya'll. Good luck to everyone.

1/2/2002 11:23:42 AM

canal winchester ohio

If you want to go by pumpkins are orange period where would that leave the others. to use Topsfield as a example how would the following be judged
Weir 1260--- green , white, cream & orange
Kuhn 1020--- a whitish orange
Dwelly 1002-- a light cream orange
Carter 955.8-- a true bright deep orange
Just courious how some of you would judge these is the rules were pumpkins were a orange that we all think of as a halloween orange...........Paul

1/2/2002 12:00:36 PM

Indiana

I personally like the rule the way it is. There is a visual difference after you go over the 25%. I've been on both sides of the ruling. I had a fruit that I gridded to be at 32% green for me, and was ruled a squash, and a friend and competitior that had way more green than me (I think so anyway). He was ruled a pumpkin. I got a great seed out of my placing in squash, but lost a placing in the pumpkin category, and ultimately 250 dollars. The person that had the questionable fruit is a true friend, and I respected teh decision of the judge, but did not agree. This problem has no simple answer. I personally dont think a fruit that is 75% green should be a pumpkin, and it is not a true squash. Where does that leave us, a dead lock. But there needs to be a universal system of measurements and rulings. That is my utopia, but it will never happen.
Tom Beachy

1/2/2002 12:27:31 PM

Ken D.

Connecticut, USA

How about a third category for the tween'ers?

1/2/2002 12:36:01 PM

Len

Rush, NY

Ken, we would have more "tween"ers" than Pumpkins if the current rules were applied consistantly, which of course, they wouldn't be. The inconsistant judging problem would still be there.
Here is how we got into this "mess". About 10 years ago I got Ray Waterman's WHITE fruit disqualified because it wasn't Yellow or Orange. The following summer Ray told me several times he was going to create a 3rd category called "OTHER" for pumpkins that were not Yellow or Orange. When the rules arrived in early September, it said "CREME" was going to be an acceptable Pumpkin color. I called Ray and he told me Howard Dill would not buy into having the 3rd category but would accept "CREME" as a pumpkin color. I think that was a bad decision. I thought that then and still do.

1/2/2002 3:58:29 PM

Utah

I'm with you Tom ... i think the rules are fine the way they are.... Well...OK Len-- I don't think white should count either... but as stated the problem is in how the judges make a determination.
I think that they just need more training.
i've said it before,
send out a nice color phamplet with the rules - step by step ... include a bunch of 'betweeners' on it-
with the step by step's followed leading to the determination of each of them.

make up a bunch of the phamplets.
[Just don't leave your phamplet in the dash of you car to fade the color ! ? ]
post it on BP and a few other places.

train the judges better...

have a process... and follow it. right now we have a rule
and people want to change the rule, to make it easier- which is fine -but it leads to other problems. so if you ask me the problem is interperating the rules not nessicarly the rules themselfs.

At least that is how I see it.
gordon

contrasting points of view are welcome from responsisble people. :)

1/2/2002 5:36:20 PM

hey you

Greencastle, PA

They could all be wieghed in one catagory, but when submitted they must sate if it was squash or pumpkin. For example, the top 10 squash list of 2000:
1. 990 Hebb
2. 947 Welty
3. 943 McCallum
4. 895.5 Hester
5. 852 Mettler
6. 851 Handy
7. 744 Welty
8. 722 Lyons
9. 719 Vader/Greer
10: 703.5 Mitchell
Q: Is that coretct?
A: No, the 823.8 Edwards should be placed number 7, not the 744 Welty.
However, the 1009.2 Scherber, which was wieghed at Anamosa, just like the 823.8 Edwards, is listed as the number 6 pumpkin of 2000. The problem is that all fruit are getting entered as pumpkins. Color judging doesn't matter as much when it doesn't involve winning prize money so they should be judged, just not wieghed seperatly. That way, they both can win the same ammount of money, but are given the respect they deserve on the top fruit lists. The 823.8 would be, "just another big pumpkin," when looked at on the top pumpkin list, when it should be ranked number 7 in 2000, and it was previously (year 2000-2001) the number 16 squash of alltime wieghed at a GPC site. So, the point I'm trying to make is: They should be wieghed in the same catagory, but, entered seperatly.
I said earlier that AG's and giant squash have similar gentic makeup is true, so they should be entered in the same catagory. Just my 2 cents.
Tom

P.S. They 947 Welty was a pumpkin, but ruled squash by poor judging. It was pink.

1/2/2002 5:55:17 PM

Indiana

Len,
Thanks for the history lesson. It does everyone on the site well to know where stuff comes from, and why things are the way they are.
Tom Beachy

1/2/2002 6:55:42 PM

Gads

Deer Park WA

Ok then, let me put it this way, at the risk of never getting any seed from a grower I totaly respect.....
Mr.Craig Weir's 1260.5 monster under the PNWGPG rules with the Canby Judges,would have been an Earth shattering World Record Monster Squash, and probably would have held the World record for a very, very long time. Except it was weighed early........

Look folkes we all work our asses of to grow these things, against all odds, I personally like the grid method for the squash/pumpkin determination, but the squash growers need to start being paid "Prize Money". How many "Pumpkin Growers" have had your best fruit turn squash?
I sincerley hope I havent ticked anytone off, but the folks in the NATIONAL COMMITTEE need to lay down some fair, and consistant guidlines FAST or their wont be any distinction between green, gray, white, orange or, purple..... Just the biggest fruit thingy wins....

Have a happy day........ The Gadberry's
P.s. Craig, My address is P.0 Box 1921 Airway Heights WA 99001 if you have any seeds laying around you don't want.

1/2/2002 11:32:13 PM

pumpkinpicker

Ann Arbor, Mi

I say everyones making way too much of this...A squash is a squash it starts green is green at day 15,30,45,60 It may turn a litle blueish or gray in later days. A pumpkin can start green or yellow is yellow on day 20,30,45,60 It may turn more orange, cream or whiter in later days....If a PUMPKIN gets late season green it doesn't make it a squash(period) Percentages and grids are not needed If you've seen true squash it's easy to tell...my 2 cents, Bob Wells

1/3/2002 9:39:53 PM

Jim-B

Goffstown,nh

I must say I agree 100% with you Bob. And If I ever have to vote on this change this would be the solution... Jim

1/4/2002 7:13:28 AM

canal winchester ohio

I was just wondering if anything has been figured out yet.
And also why will it take "some" time to come to a conclusion.

Paul

4/14/2002 7:46:04 PM

Brian C.

Rexburg, Idaho (brianchristensenmd@gmail.com )

Good question?

4/14/2002 11:28:08 PM

Indiana

Great question!!!!! Sounds like the GPC leadership is going to dodge this again........
Tom Beachy

4/15/2002 12:18:18 AM

kilrpumpkins

Western Pa.

Tim Parks explained the situation at the Niagara Falls seminar. There is and has been a lot of controversy over this issue. Both sides have good points, and the G.P.C. is looking at all opinions/ideas, before making a final ruling. Tim asked that we, as growers, be "open minded". That is, if you plan on taking a "questionable" fruit to weigh-off, be prepared that the judging may go either way. He also stated that "You can't please all the people all of the time", and so no matter what is decided, someone will be unhappy with the ruling. Stay tuned.

4/15/2002 9:17:16 AM

Utah

Paul-
you should ask them (Eaton, Glasier, Holland, Parks and Wiberg) this question.
gordon

4/15/2002 9:56:44 AM

Indiana

Unfortunately their ruling could affect what people plant. I never make assumptions, but it appears as if there will be no ruling by planting time which by the way is already past for some people. I know people will be unhappy either way. That is what leaders do, make decisions. I personally won't care how they rule(event though, I am strongly swaying my vote to one side), but I question abilities when decisions get put off. As for going directly to Eaton, Holland, Glasier, Parks, and Wiberg, I know that Holland, Glasier, and Eaton monitor the mallorn list. This has come up many times through there. Why didn't they respond? Just some thoughts. All anyone wants at this point is an answer.
Tom Beachy

4/15/2002 12:37:39 PM

Long Island,New York

One of the points Tim Parks made at the Niagara meeting is that the grower who brings the fruit to the weighoff should be aware of the potential for judging either way and be prepared before he brings it. If the rule....any rule....was followed by the judges at a weighoff then there wouldn't be a problem. Most growers know more about pumpkins/squash than the judges do....we (the growers) are aware of what is and isn't by the written rule...why arent they judged by the written rule? The fact that most growers feel the rule should be changed is a second and separate discussion than the judging of the current rule. It stands to argue that if the judges arent judging by the rule then the rule is contrary to common opinion or just plain sucks.
Secondly, .......

4/15/2002 3:15:36 PM

Long Island,New York

Secondly, Tim mentions that the growers should expect this problem. What no-one at the GPC microphone seems to realize or admit is that EVERYONE in the contest(s) is DIRECTLY influenced by the judging of a fruit a squash or a pumpkin.That big squash the judges called a pumpkin just moved the big pumpkins another notch down in the standings. That pumpkin they called a squash just beat out a real green squash and moved everyone down the list behind it. It affects EVERYONE....even Gordon..................G

4/15/2002 3:20:21 PM

Long Island,New York

Thirdly....I feel Tim Parks is the "Dill...Eaton..Wiberg... and,yes....even Waterman" of the 2000's in this hobby. I know of no-one doing more for the Hobby of giant pumpkins than Tim Parks some of the folks in the Ohio Valley group. Tim has talked to us about progress in soil fumigations,diseases, etc and openly promoted giant pumpkins for years.His weighoff is a great success and has added much publicity to the sport.He's taken a strong role in the GPC and thats appreciated .....G

4/15/2002 3:26:23 PM

kilrpumpkins

Western Pa.

LI,
I'm sure Tim would appreciate that comment, too bad he isn't hooked up with the info superhighway! I've always considered Tim the "Clark Gable" of Giant Pumpkins!

kilr

4/15/2002 5:09:59 PM

Utah

G-
it would even affect me ? really ? ... I don't see how? :)
what's the difference between 12th and 13th place anyway ?
that's were i was at the last weight off i went to..
which was good... the one before that i was 2nd to last.
so i'm improving...
all of the weight offs that i have been to ... the
judges know there rules and do a good job at judging.
I haven't dissagreed with any of their rulings...
to me... it just sounds like the GPC just needs to line up some training for the judges at the weigh off you go to.
the rules are fine... they just need to be enforced.

and just so you know that i take this seriously G...
I bet you that at the end of this year I have world record pumpkin (75% orange !!!!)

Gordon

4/15/2002 6:34:20 PM

canal winchester ohio

Gordon,
A few on the commitee read over the mallorn & this list. If they chose to they could respond.

Paul

4/15/2002 6:47:56 PM

Poppy

I agree with you Glenn, I believe they are just slipping around it & not showing the leadership they should be.

4/15/2002 8:10:23 PM

hey you

Greencastle, PA

Gordon,
12th and 13th aren't much different. What the problem is is that a grower could be 5th (last money place at Altoona) and be beaten by a squash and move to 6th. Obviously, a squash can't win the pumpkin division or visa versa. It's the money that's the issue among the GPC steering comittee.
Tom

4/15/2002 9:06:28 PM

Utah

TOM -
i hear you and i know if affects people...
some more than others...
and i guess if it affected me I might be a little
more worried about it all.
but that's part of my point. but in all honesty
i don't know very many people that it has affected
directly... sure we have all heard of a case here
and there. but in total i don't think that it is
that many....

4/16/2002 10:04:07 AM