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San Diego, Ca.

The 845 Bobier for whatever reason has great heat tolerance.
When Boily selfed his 845 and grew the 950.4 that heat gene was pasted on to it.
I was wondering about all the different crosses that have been made with the 845. Do some, many, most or any of these crosses exhibit the heat tolerance as that of the 845?

1/12/2005 9:26:30 PM

San Diego, CA

Glad to hear it is heat tolerant - I have a cross from Pugh in CA that's a 963 Stucker x 845 Bobier that I plan to try this year. The other ones I've picked out are another from Pugh (1230 Daletas x 808 Beachy) & two from Little (804 Plourde x 508 Weir, and 503 Grunow x 731 Stucker). Now I'm really watching for these lines to be discussed so I get more clues! I'm hoping for large (it's the REASON!), orange (should LOOK like a pumpkin), & heat tolerant (it may be the mountains, but it's still San Diego).

1/12/2005 10:05:11 PM

Commack, NY

Gourdzilla, how would you describe heat tolerance? what characteristics must a seed exhibit for you to classify it as being heat tolerant? Why would you say the 845 Bobier has "great" heat tolerance?

My experience with the 845 (i grew a 1030 with it in 2003) was the exact opposite of what you describe. It wasnt heat tolerant at all. The leaves flagged even under shade cloth AND misting, while the selfed 846 calai plant that i grew next to it, didnt flag at all under the same conditions.

In reference to Boily's 950.4, although it was a very impressive fruit, it was 10% light. the 950.4's biggest offspring, the 1032 Perez, was almost 3% light. So what "heat gene" exactly was passed on here?

Granted, all of those fruit were big, which is obviously what we all want, but i dont see anything in there that would lead me to believe that the 845 has some special heat tolerant element to it, making it especially suited to hot weather growing. In fact the top 3 progeny from the 845 were grown in climates that i wouldnt consider to be "hot".

1337 Houghton -- New Hampshire
1260 Weir-- Massachusetts
1252 Mackinnon--Nova Scotia

Im not trying to be a fly in the ointment here, just curious as to what you see that i might be missing.

1/12/2005 11:02:32 PM

Morris, Connecticut

Would have to agree with Scott on this one. My 845 plant that I grew a few years back was the worst. The first plant to wilt in the patch everytime....and that was when I lived in Vermont!

Adam

1/12/2005 11:42:29 PM

Sydney, Australia

The 845 I've got growing this year is very heat resistant indeed. 105F out there right this minute and not a bit of wilt, even in direct sunlight... Seems to have even better heat resistance than the 845 plant that grew the 950.4. Lets see how big the pumpkin on it gets....... Ben

1/12/2005 11:54:27 PM

Eugene,OR

The 845 I grew this year was a great plant. Did not flag from heat once. I was very pleased with it and my results from it.

1/13/2005 12:12:35 AM

New Hampshire

Genetics gives you at best "probability " not “certainty". This genetic game is like Las Vegas except I rather take my chances in the patch.

1/13/2005 6:56:47 AM

Cologne / Germany

I think the wilt problem has much to do with how good your root system is established which also depends on your soil and if the plant has enough water. But this is more a question of the actual plant condition and environment than genetic issues. I doubt every 845 is the same. A less developed plant might suffer, a strong one not.

1/13/2005 7:24:10 AM

Chico, Ca

hey Santa Rosa, you don't get "heat" like we get here in the Sacramento valley. pop over the hill sometime august and come to chico. It is not unusual to get two weeks in a row of 108-110F a few times every summer. Bay area people gripe if it gets over 90f.

1/13/2005 7:56:07 AM

Phoenix, AZ

Farmer Scott,
Regarding the 950.4 and the 1032 being light, these were grown in climates that were well above optimal for these plants. There is a mountain of evidence showing where yields are reduced on plants in conditions such as this. This is not surprising, but expected. In fact 950.4 being only 10% light is impressive given to reading his diary for that year and the constant intense heat Boily suffered.

As for your true life experience with your plant, hopefully someone else can clarify if all genes are passed on to every seed the same. I sure don't know that for sure.

1/13/2005 9:05:42 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Flagging of leaves during heat spells is the way the plant protects itself from heat. The leaf stomates close to avoid moisture loss.

Perhaps it is at these times that flagging prevents moisture related stress to the developing fruit.

Are we confused? Could flagging in the summer heat be a desirable trait for warm area growers?

1/13/2005 9:20:17 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

By this I mean to imply that a plant that remians up & turgid is transpiring moisture at an alarming rate to remain so. At these times perhaps the developing fruit is suffering for the effort as the moisture to keep trugid leaves is being directed away from the fruit.

1/13/2005 9:22:03 AM

Hilpoltstein, Bavaria, Germany

The 845 plant I had in 2003 (a summer with record high temps) was the plant that wilted worst for me so far. It was anything but heat tolerant!
My 845 plant in 2004 didn't have a chance to show if it was heat tolerant as it was the coldest and wettest summer I've experienced since growing the AGs.

Martin

1/13/2005 9:23:08 AM

Phoenix, AZ

Tremor,
Thanks for the "out of the box" thinking. What is it that makes it "heat tolerant"? From out discussion, I assume it means the plant does not wilt in heat, but that is just one heat related activity a plant goes through. There are of course many things going on.

1/13/2005 9:42:01 AM

Utah

I think Scott's point has to be well taken. Just because you have a seed with 845 genes in it somewhere doesn't mean that it will be heat tolerent. It appears that some have done well in heat and some haven't.

1/13/2005 10:18:52 AM

Utah

Steve-
I don't think wilt is good ... yes it is a reaction to help save the plant ... and maybe the plant would die if it didn't wilt ... but it isn't a good thing for growing pumpkins ! Every time I have had a plant wilt it has not done as well period.
I think of it like a person who is out in the cold. He starts to shiver because he is so cold ... is this a good thing ? well yes it is built in mechanism that will keep him alive longer than if he didn't shiver ... but he is not is a good situation! and the thing to do is get out of the cold !

1/13/2005 10:34:36 AM

Utah

Hot Pumpkin,

you can look at AG's like people- in the sense that they inherit there genes and charaterists from their parents.
If you are a great long distance runner - does that mean all of your children will be great long distance runners ?
no ... well maybe but not for sure ... it's not guaranteed ... and a big piece of the picture is still missing ... your wife ... if she is a great long distance runner also - then will all of you kids be great long distance runners ? I think the answer is is no ... but the odds are better that any one of them will be.
... what if your wife is a great gal but can run 100 yards to save her life ? then what is the answer ? the odds are worse for any given child.
It is the same with AG's nothing is guaranteed ... but there are better odds and worse odds. good trends and bad trends... and it depends also on what charateristic that you are looking for ... % heavy, fruit color, heat tolerence, fruit shape, etc, etc ...
I hope this helps.

1/13/2005 10:44:12 AM

Commack, NY

HotPumpkin, i agree that the Boyton, and Perez pumpkins were grown in less than optimal conditions. No problem there. And i also agree that they're performance was excellent considering the climate.

Tremor, interesting thought there......now you've got me thinking a bit...

My main reason for my comments was simple. Anyone whos done this long enough knows only too well that there are no hard and fast rules to growing giant pumpkins. To make a generalized comment that the 845 has "great heat tolerance" is simply incorrect. As discussed in other posts, if you planted all the seeds from a pumpkin, you're results concerning various characteristics (desireable or otherwise) would resemble a bell curve. With that said, you just cant make a blanket statement that the hard and fast rule is that the 845 has excellent heat tolerance. Im sure some growers have experienced heat tolerance with the 845, i personally have not, and as can be seen from some of the above posts, im not alone.

Would i plant an 845 again? you bet i would! BUT if weather could be predicted with 100% accuracy, and the weatherman (i mean weatherPERSON) said that the summer was going to be oppressively hot, i wouldnt plant it.

I think that it would take many generations of growing a selected strain before you would have a predictable "heat tolerant" seed stock. Could Boily be on the right track? Absolutely, no doubt about it, but i couldnt see not chiming in here. Undoubtedly a newbie will read this thread, and theres nothing worse than working your butt off all season long, under false impressions.

1/13/2005 10:48:15 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

The idea is to think Scott. At the time of year we're concerned with wilting, the green parts aren't supposed to be growing. They have gone from "sink" to "source". A wilted "source" might still be producung the needed photosynthate the desired "sink" needs. The evidence it is happening even under adverse conditions might be the wilting.

In other words wilting might be a signal the plant is doing what it is supposed to even at those times it is difficult to achieve.

1/13/2005 11:35:03 AM

Commack, NY

So if we force the plant to not wilt, by incorporating things like shade cloth, misting, etc., is it actually helping the pumpkin?

1/13/2005 11:46:34 AM

Oakland, CA, USA

This thread really points out one of the serious problems that giant pumpkins present to those who would try to systematically improve the overall performance of the plants through selective breeding: we can only grow a few per year because of all the work they take to get them to perform up to their potential and because of the huge amounts of space, water and soil improvements they require. This coupled with the constant search for the silver-bullet seed means that no single cross is ever planted out in large quantities under relatively controlled conditions (i.e. in one field or locality during the same season). We are still selecting for the largest fruit (and the year-over-year gains show that we're doing something right on that front!), but we're practically ignoring (or paying for too little attention)the other aspects of pumpkin genetics, like vegetative growth and performance under different conditions, as well as trying aggressively to select out known bad qualities (I could be wrong on this one since I'm pretty new, but it looks like most folks would take their chances with flat-vine-prone stock if they thought they might get a big pumpkin out of it). Because no one of us has the resources to do proper field trials and use scientific methods, all our info is "anecdotal", that is, it's just one persons experiences under very specific circumstances (which very widely from person to person and aren't very comparable when lumped together). What's all that got to do with "Heat Tolerance?"

1/13/2005 1:16:01 PM

Oakland, CA, USA

...Well, if we want to find out if some seed-stocks really do perform better under high-heat conditions, why not select a specific seed and get a number of growers in consistently hot areas to grow it under similar conditions...those conditions we can control, like pruning, spacing, seed germination technique, transplanting technique, watering and feeding regimens,etc. The results would be much more likely to actually "mean something". If you selfed every plant in the trial and then kept seeds for the next round from only those plants that performed the best (deciding what constitutes a good performance is part of the experimental design) and plant them out the next year, picking only the best, maybe doing some selected crosses to grow in future years to study how heat resistance is passed on, etc. Folks would have to work together and set aside part of their growing space and pumpkin-care time, someone would have to organize it and supply a relatively large quantity of seed from a single pumpkin and then do all the tabulation and analysis work when the results came in, but you'd actually have some solid info on heat resistance and the beginnings of a system for doing this with other pumpkin traits (good and bad). Just some thoughts. -Erin.

1/13/2005 1:19:40 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Kudos Erin. If I wasn't so busy today I'd be pouring over the AGGC "by state" querie builder for the genetics behind various southern state records.

CT's record producer was the 805 Pukos but it has fallen to a Reynolds seed during a cooler wetter than average summer. Our summers are can get quite hot.

1/13/2005 2:20:46 PM

Commack, NY

Well thought out Erin. I couldnt agree more.

1/13/2005 2:53:27 PM

San Diego, Ca.

I need to clairify my original question to start this thread since I didn't make it too clear.

That the 845 has very good heat tolerance is a fact, (not meant to be a "blanket statement")however as we've all read in the posts above that not all maybe only a few of the 845 seeds have this desired trait, but the ones that are heat tolerance are very good.
What I am trying to determine is whether those plants grown from the 845 that expressed good heat tolerance (them only) passed that trait on when it was crossed with something other than itself.
I am curious to see if this trait reveals itself to be dominate or recessive.
I would like to hear of someone who had a heat tolerant 845, crossed it with something else then grew it. I'm sure there has to be quite a few people out there who have done this.

1/13/2005 2:58:46 PM

Indiana

I had a guy in New Mexico that requested my most heat tollerant seeds, and I sent him some that produced 600 pounds. Stuff with 845 and 705 stelts has seemed to mix real well for me. Thus the 550 and 644 of ours. The 237 also did well for him, and another I cant remember.

Tom

1/13/2005 3:04:53 PM

Utah

hey zilla,
sorry if we picked on you. you just need to work or your lawyer-esse posting skills ... use more vague - non-binding - statements ! phrases like , I think, my opinion, It seems like ... lol ! just teasing you ... :)

There certainly are 845 decentant seeds "that seem" :) to be very heat tolerant. and it is logical that you would be seeking after them.

gordon

1/13/2005 3:33:20 PM

San Diego, Ca.

No offense taken Gordon, I could tell by some of the responces that I needed to clarify what I was trying to get at.
There are some great posts going here so far..."in my opinion" (is that better Gordon? ;-)

1/13/2005 4:30:28 PM

That State Up North

Ok, I don't have the time to comment on the genetics of all this, but it is a very interesting topic.
I just want to say that wilting is bad, always bad for us. When a plant wilts it is due to ABA production, and this is also what contributes to pathways leading to maturation. Wonder why the fruit don't grow as long down south? Well when they wilt, they age faster. If you want a big pumpkin, it has to grow as long as physicaly possible.

Nic Welty

1/13/2005 5:02:58 PM

Okla

Ok,, here is some info based from someone who has grown in the heat. Flagging means a Stressed plant! An unprotected flagging plant shuts down taking in what a plant and fruit needs to grow, (photosynthesis) so pre-maturing occurs! The plant will go into survival mode, causing the fruit to either abort or mature to fast. You have to protect the plant from the heat no matter what. Give me a plant that does not flag in the heat anytime over a stressed out plant that will cause the fruit to mature prematurely. So far almost all out fruits have been over the chart and not coming up light, but very heavy. Now doesn’t that just suck cause that just blows all you growers theories that have not had the luxury to grow in hot weather huh. A 600-lb pumpkin grown in a HOT climate is about equal to a pumpkin over a 1000 lbs. up north. Want to argue that then come on down to the Southern United States and try it. I think most of the Southern, United Stated growers will agree on what I have just said. You do know that photosynthesis will shut down due to a couple reasons, with one being when the temps go over a certain point, say around the low-mid 90s and up. No photosynthesis then, No fruit growth. Anyone interested in learning about some stuff do a search on photosynthesis and see what all you come up with. Same thing with pollination, temps reach a certain point and no matter how hard you try you just will not get anything to set.
The 845 and some 846 genes have done very well here in the hot weather but others like the 705 and 1230 genes do not do good at all. There are other few, very few, crosses that do well here also. There are my thoughts about the hot climate growing.
Thomas

1/13/2005 5:22:16 PM

Okla

Some more thoughts about Southern Growing in the Hot Climates.
So that means our growing schedule is not the same as yours up north so that is why you DO NOT see many Southern Growers at the weighoffs. That means rules are going to have to be changed so that Southern Growers will be able to compete!!! Something like a Southern and Northern Conference is going to have to be looked at by the Big Organizations since they say they are ready to change to the present day growers needs. The rules from the past were made when there was NOT any growers hardly from the South,, but come on people times have changed! Your going to have to adapt so that Southern Growers can be involved also. If not then as more Southern Growers come aboard there is going to have to be a Organization for them and they will have to form there own. So either adapt or be left out.

1/13/2005 5:25:21 PM

Utah

"wilting is always bad"

Thank you Nic !!!

1/13/2005 5:37:54 PM

Utah

thank you Thomas ...

...I'd suggest that start your own independent weigh off and hold it when ever you want ...

1/13/2005 5:41:23 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Perhaps my concept has been taken out of context since in my haste, I wasn't very clear.

No doubt about it that a wilted plant is a stressed plant & that's bad.

But for some reason, every 845 that I've seen growing has exhibitted the midday wilt unless it is shaded, misted or otherwise pampered. And these wilt prone plants are generally the best performers even in the heat.

So I'll rephrase the concept.

Plants that are prone to wilting are telling us something. That something is probably that they are still growing despite heat & moisture stress. So do something fast to correct the situation since the fruit is still growing & could be doing better as evidenced by the flagging.

1/13/2005 7:44:56 PM

Phoenix, AZ

Gourdzilla,

I am not an expert on the subject of plants, genetics, or pumpkins but specifically heat tolerance has interested me. So to answer your revised question, thankfully, it is easier to answer than growing 100 seed to maturity.

You can test seedlings for thermoloerance...if this is all you are after. specific criteria has been set up to determine thermoloerance and it is quite easy to duplicate for any seed. Basically, it involves taking seedlings to a higher than optimal temperature for a bit (say 100 F) and then after a few hours, hit them with say 130 F for a few. You need that initial time at a slighly higher temp to illicit the thermoloerant properties. From there, you can see which ones survive or are less stunted than the control.

1/13/2005 9:52:46 PM

Indiana

Steve,
only one of our 845's has ever wilted in the mid day heat. Lost a little crispness, but I wouldnt call it wilt. The plant that grew the 1097 didnt even notice 100 degrees.

Tom

1/14/2005 12:12:37 AM

Sydney, Australia

I found the point of wilting on the 845 today as the temps hit 109F (43C) in the shade. But I wouldn't call it wilt, like Tom, a lack of crispness. I'll post a few pics in my diary, 845 vs 1301.5. The pic's will show what wilt is all about at 109F, lol! Actually no laughing matter, when your out in the sun, trying to hand mist!
Ben

1/14/2005 12:28:25 AM

San Diego

no blanket statement heheh but the 845 has great heat tolerance from the majority if it's seeds that have been grown, with a few of them showing amazing heat tolerance. I'm growing the 950 this coming year, which Gourdzilla grew last year with no wilt up to 110 degree days. It will be selfed, and I'm hoping to start my own hot weather lineage with better and better genetics for the heat that hopefully give even more consistancy to hot temps. I think the 950 is the perfect starting point for this lineage. Jimmy

1/14/2005 12:53:54 AM

Commack, NY

Zilla, you said "That the 845 has very good heat tolerance is a fact". I must respectively disagree. Its not a "fact". There have been more than a few 845's grown that were not the greatest performers in the heat. I know of growers that experienced brittle vines on that plant, i didnt when i grew it. Is it a fact that if someone grows the 845 they will have a plant with brittle vines? Nope. Sometimes yes, but not always.
Maybe its semantics, but to me, if something is a "fact" that means its always going to happen, its a certainty, a definite. Its a fact that we all are not going to live forever.....that is a fact. If you want to base a fact on 1 fruit, the 950.4 (Im the one who brought up the 1032), then anyone can draw a conclusion from 1 offspring.
Gordon Tanner lives in Salt Lake City, effectively a desert. He grew the 735 Pukos this year. It popped, an 891 for him. (or maybe 906, i cant remember sorry Gordo), anyway it was a big fruit none the less. So can we now surmise that the 735 Pukos is a good heat tolerant seed? It was grown in a desert like environment right? To me it would have to be heat tolerant then, right? I grew it also, and got an 882 from it. It wasnt hot by me this past year though. Maybe Gordon is an exceptional grower, i mean he broke the state record something like 4 times this year. So where does that leave us? Inconclusive. (continued)

1/14/2005 9:22:24 AM

Commack, NY

I looked at Boily's diary today, and its pretty impressive. This plant has a characteristic that makes it less susceptible to heat. That's a great thing! If you want to produce a heat tolerant strain, Boily's plant from this year would be a great place to start. its proven its ability to sustain growth in the hottest of days, in the harshest of climates. Not every 845 is going to exhibit this trait, as is evidenced by more than a couple of the above posts. Now you also have to consider that Boily is an excellent grower, he knows what to do to make his pumpkins thrive. It is not a "fact" that the 845 is a very heat tolerant seed, if it were, every person on this thread would be touting its heat resistance.

1/14/2005 9:22:39 AM

Western NY

my 845 was the worst i've ever had for heat tolerance! it died as a seedling at around 140 degrees. stupid plant.

1/14/2005 9:26:54 AM

Commack, NY

I just read the rest of your post Zilla, i sort of just took the ball and ran with it there a bit, after reading your first sentence. Totally my fault. You clarified yourr statement by saying that not all of the 845's have the heat tolerant trait, but the ones that do are good at it. Your'e correct, sorry if i came off as being a bit harsh. No harm was intended.

1/14/2005 9:28:35 AM

San Diego, Ca.

No problem Farmer Scott, if I wasn't in a hurry when I originally posted my question maybe I could have avoided getting you a bit excited. ;-) I didn't realize at the time that someone would might take that I meant all 845's were heat tolerant. I will be more clear next time.

Great posts everyone...keep it going.

Tom, experiences like yours with the offspring of the (heat tolerant) 845 is what I am trying to determine.

1/14/2005 11:40:19 AM

San Diego, Ca.

Great pictures Ben! Thats what I mean when I say heat tolerant.
Something very different is going on between both of your plants.

1/14/2005 11:44:07 AM

Sydney, Australia

Yeah, the 1301.5 is in a different boat, its had some sort of disease in the leaves since it was planted.....Ben

1/14/2005 11:01:03 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

So maybe the most striking thing about this thread is that some 845s hold up well in the heat & others don't. I find it striking that the consensus is running 50/50.

1/14/2005 11:39:12 PM

Pumpkintown, SC

Steve, Steve, Steve...speaking from the "southern angle" I kinda think the 600 southern pounds equals 1000 northern pounds has gotta be the most striking thing about this thread! You rock Thomas! BF(newest member of the 1000lb club) 696 Fawcett'03 SC Record <:^}>

1/15/2005 12:20:40 AM

San Diego, Ca.

I think so too Steve. It seems from these threads that the heat tolerance of the 845 is at extremes...very good or very bad.
Hey Ben, do you have any selfed pumpkins going on that 845?

I've been thinking about your 950. It would be very interesting to have people who grew the 950 comment on whether or not they experienced the heat tolerant trait with their plant.

It would be interesting to see if the odds were more in favor of heat tolerance than that of the 845 in general. If so, it might be worth selfing the 950 to further isolate the trait if that would work.
That is what Duster and I are hoping to do this year then take a selfed 950 and cross it with the 731 Stucker (801.5 Stelts X sibb). If everything works right, we might end up with nice shaped, great colored, good sized heat tolerant offspring. It all sounds good in theory anyway :-)

I think I will start a new thread to find out what experiences people have had with the 950.

1/15/2005 12:34:57 AM

San Diego, Ca.

Congrats Snake...LOL

1/15/2005 12:48:41 AM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

Here's a thought.
The 699 Schroeder, which grew Mike's(Kygrower) 1000+ pounder(in Kentucky), has the 845 as a grandparent on one side, and the 821 Garrell(845 X self) on the other side.
Maybe Mike could fill you in on its heat tolerance. I imagine KY can get quite hot, but don't know how hot it got last year.
Maybe this is another seed to consider for heat tolerence?

Doug

1/15/2005 1:56:21 AM

Utah

I know Utah isn't exactly part of the southern statex but it is hot, high and dry. So where does one find the conversion chart for each of those factors- to give a comparable pumpkin weight ? maybe I grew a comparable 1400 lb-er ... lol !

1/16/2005 5:50:14 PM