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Follansbee, Wv

I have begun studying the genetics side of growing AG’s, and I have a few questions. First, it appears that most people cross for color, weight, and percent heavy OTT. While this sounds logical, wouldn’t it also benefit the grower to consider some other traits? Surely things such as root development, foliage growth, vine quality, leaf stem durability, etc, must have a place in the selection process. Using the diaries of other growers, one can try to see the plants development characteristics, but even photos don’t show the minute details that may play a role in growing a healthy 1000+ pound fruit. In most diaries, I see little or no mention of root growth/development, at the end of the season. Do the plants that grow the monsters have a better root system than the average plant? A thicker main vine? Larger leaves?
Granted, grower skill has a lot to do with growing big pumpkins, but as I understand it, good genetics does too. However, I have noticed that some crosses that look good on paper may not always turn out eye-popping prizewinners, even in the hands of a heavy hitter. This leads me to believe that other genetic factors must play a more significant role in fruit development. Has anyone made a detailed comparison of their own plants, particularly foliage and root development as compared to fruit size/weight? In other words, did the heavier fruited plant appear different? The differences would surly be hard to spot without detailed observations and measurements.
Maybe I am just making a newb mistake, but surly percent heavy and fruit size can’t be the only determining factors in making a good cross. And since there is really no definitive database on plant characteristics, how can one determine which crosses will be the best?

1/16/2005 9:40:03 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

I think everyone has their own priorities. These traits might include:

Weight
Color
Percent heavy
Heat Tolerance
Cold tolerance
Long season of growth (slow to mature) South of 43rd
Short season of growth (fast to mature) North of 43rd
Powdery Mildew resistance
Other disease resistance

1/16/2005 11:28:40 AM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

Monty,
Great questions you bring up(and well stated).
I hope to see what others think.
I'm especially interested in things like leaf size, plant vigor, etc.(things dealing with the plant, not just the fruit).

Doug

1/16/2005 12:11:41 PM

Halifax, Nova Scotia

I was thinking of something along these lines the other day. Is it possible that genetics can play a part in how well a plant grows in less than optimal soil? Most heavy hitters will have ideal soil, and grow big plants, but for a newb that is still working on improving their soil, would it not be more beneficial to find a plant that thrives in soil with lower OM for example?

I hate winter...I want to grow pumpkins, I'm tired of thinking about growing pumpkins.

1/16/2005 1:30:19 PM

You are preachin' to the choir MonteJ! I'm glad to see someone out there really thinking this thing through. You are definitely asking the correct questions. Its those like yourself that will probably provide the answers as well.

1/16/2005 1:56:59 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

Monte...Alot of these other traits such as you mentioned are very intangible, that is, they cannot be clearly defined and categorized. For example....to clearly isolate and evaluate the efficacy of certain traits such as root development, one would have to grow *many* "subjects" (seed) from the same fruit, all growing in the exact same conditions, same soil, same watering, same nutrient intake into each plant, etc. And this process would have to be repeated for each individual AG strain/seed out there. Without such specific-type studies and evaluations, then all comments regarding a particular plants traits, is subjective and without provable and clearly defined merits.
There are so many extraneous factors that affect the growth of each AG plant, and no two are just alike...even those from the same parent, that noone can without doubt, say that one particular strain produces a clearly defined and specific trait, all the time, and with more obvious dominance than another strain.
Look at the recent discussion about the 950 Boyton. In general, it's regarded as a heat tolerant plant, but there are numerous other examples that have been grown from it that did not seem to have this inherent trait.
I guess what I'm trying to say is this....you can have some "general" assumptions about a particular seed and what type traits *may* be displayed, but it's all a crap-shoot that guarantees nothing. No two seed are alike, and it's somewhat like comparing apples and oranges to think one strain will clearly and consistently, exhibit a particular trait that is so overwhelmingly present, that you can accurately attach that assumption to it.
Even heavy OTC progeny is not a guarantee for some seed that many, including myself, always believed to be a near 100% certainty. The 709.5 McCallum produced a pumpkin that weighed 6% light this past season! What's next? Will the 1260 Weir break my heart in 2005 and throw me a light dud?!

1/16/2005 2:27:09 PM

Follansbee, Wv

I understand what you are saying Southern, but in a way, I believe it is possible to begin a study of AG traits, albeit on a small scale, in ones own patch. For instance, I will put in six plants this year. Because no two have the same exact genetic background, I should be able to observe and annotate the differences between the plants as they grow and make comparisons between them. Obviously, it would be better to be able to repeat the same situation the following year for confirming empirical data, but as you said, no two seeds are alike. However, the genetic background of seeds from the same pumpkin should be very close at the least, and if grown in the same conditions should produce similar results. Is this not correct? Could it be expected that two seeds from the same pumpkin, planted in the same patch at the same time, would produce similar results? This is assuming in a perfect world where environmental factors such as PM or SVB’s are removed from the equation. Or in the mixed up genetic AG pool, is it just as likely for one of the seeds to produce a nice, round, orange pumpkin, and the other a big, pale beanbag?
I just think there is more to creating a proven line than randomly crossing this heavy producer with that one. I am also led to wonder, with all of the crossing hither and yon, if the gene pool isn’t becoming so muddied that it may stagnate, with nothing new to throw into the mix. In other words, eventually all AG’s will have some genetic connection to all others, causing the species to stabilize into a plant that grows a consistently predictable yield, no matter what.

1/16/2005 3:07:41 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

At the risk of derailing this thread I propose an interesting situation.

In 2003 a friend grew an 845 Bobier. He set 3 genetic fruit (sibs, selfs, etc) & one competition fruit on the main. All of the fruit had short stems of 2.5-4". The largest fruit made 690 lbs but nearly ripped itself from the plant.

It was therefore with reservations I planted a cutting from that plant in 2004. Hoping the male pollen would fail to express that trait, I used it anyway.

Later I had need to set fruit on that clone plant. Stems were all 5-8" long & nearly straight. This plant exhibitted zero stem stress.

Point being that we tend to give genetics a lot of credit in areas where other factors also play a role. Identifying all of the causes & effects can be rather bewildering sometimes.

Weird plants these AGs sometimes.

1/16/2005 3:16:03 PM

Montoursville, PA

At the possibility of getting shot at I will simply say there is little or no scientific study involved, in our hobby and I hardly see how there could be.

What we have are educated guesses or as gentlemanly stated above a craps shoot. We are begining, to observe, somewhat better along lines, of certain seed, that seem, to stand up better than others against the heat.

We are begining to observe and learn how to build better soil that will in turn support any goodness we may find in a specific seed.

I know of no scientific study. There are lots of crosses made hoping the good from one will join, in the good qualities, of another. If the proof is, in the pudding then we might call out just a few historical crosses that tend to increase ones odds, of getting an nice result. However the same exact seed will have and will continue, to perform well only, in the hands, of experienced growers. This would be average truth. If a first year grower succeeds there are all kinds, of reasons beyond the seed.

Even if you take the last five or so growers holding a World Champion result two things jump out and cry, for clarification. One....Why do they not use the same seed and two....why can they not maintain huge near champion level fruit year after year.

One thing anyone can do is identify a seed that is thought to be good genetics and move it with hope, to another seed's genitic mix by crossing. You may or may not succeed in anything. You might even create the world'w worst seed.

Cross and prove one highly fungal resistant. You will be famous instantly.

It can be done within seed science as well as by luck. It is unlikely it will be within the scientific community.

So don't be afraid to move gooder to good to find better. T

Know that you would likely gain more, by figuring and establishing a stronger heathier soil, in which, to grow any champion seed you may one day discover, in your hands.

1/16/2005 5:05:15 PM

Oakland, CA, USA

Hybridizing plants is pretty complex, but it seems a few analogies could make it a little easier to discuss and comprehend: Each plant has a set of genes, not all of which are "expressed" in how the plant grows and performs. Look at it like a deck of cards, 52 of them, and only about 26 are dealt out and played with (the genes expressed by the plant). Each pollen grain of every male flower and unfertilized seed in every female flower on the same plant all draw 26 cards from the same pack of 52 (each one draws independently). If you self a pumpkin then all the cards come from the same deck, so there is a small chance that you will get exactly the same genetic make up as the parent, but most likely you'll have some mix of the genes that were expressed and those that weren't, so there'll be some difference. Have you ever gotten the same hand in poker two times in a row? That's just five cards. (continued)

1/16/2005 5:28:12 PM

Oakland, CA, USA

Now, cross the plant with another and you now have two different decks to draw from. Some of the cards in each deck may be the same, but depending on how closely related they are, any mutations that have crept in, etc., there will be more or less different cards. Now, for every seed that gets fertilized, each plant contributes 26 of it's cards, chosen at random each time from it's full 52, and they make a new combined deck of 52. So there is a strong likelihood that each seed in the pumpkin will be genetically distinct.
Some plant traits rely on only one gene to "express", but others require two or more genes to all be present and "expressed" in order for a specific trait or quality to appear in the plant. If you take a plant that has a complex trait like this and cross with another plant that doesn't, you severly reduce the likelihood of it occurring in the off-spring. You couldn't rely on it 100% in the first place, but when all the cards came from the same deck, the odds of passing it on were only X in 52 (where X relates to the number of genes in the complex trait), but now you've got twice as many genes and the odds are greatly increased (depending on how many of the necessary genes are in the other parent's deck of cards). No one has mapped out the pumpkin genenome an we have no idea what the different combinations are for specific traits, so we can't just "read" a plant and cook up a cross that's statistically likely to create exactly what we want, but we can use a more directed approach to hybridizing (with well-established principles) and move in specific directions. But there are difficulties inherent to doing this with giant pumpkins, namely how nearly impossible it is for anyone to individually grow out all the seed from one cross in one year in the same field. (cont., sorry this is LONG!)

1/16/2005 5:44:21 PM

Oakland, CA, USA

...but that's not necessary. We don't need to quantify all the characteristics of pumpkins, but rather only a few that would really have a bearing on our efforts to grow giants, like resistance to insect pests, powdery mildew (and a few other diseases), resistance to heat/cold, length of growing season (long or short, depending on local conditions), various qualities of vine and leaf development, and freedom of defects like flatvine, dill rings, blossom-end splits and the like.
The thread on Heat Resistance really got me thinking about how a relatively small group of growers could work together to make major improvements to the gene pool or giant pumpkins. Each person grows one or two pumpkins for the project alongside their other pumpkins, observes how it grows and performs, makes a controlled cross or two with it and reports what they observed. Work on only a few traits at a time (or just one)and plan crosses that move in a definite direction, rather than randomly mixing the cards to see what comes out. I spent all week thinking about this and came up with ideas on how it could work simply and easily. It wouldn't cost anything (the only work other than just growing pumpkins is a little bit of writing down observations, and then one or two people tabulate the results at the end of the season), and would potentially yield better seeds each season. We could use the same cooperative method to evaluate growing techniques, new pumpkin crosses, fertilizers and pest control methods, germination techniques, on and on. Any one interested? If nothing else, it'll be fun. -Erin.

1/16/2005 6:00:35 PM

Follansbee, Wv

Erin, it is exactly this “randomly mixing the cards to see what comes out” approach that has me confused in the entire genetics/breeding process. How can anyone expect any type of progress to be made if no guidelines are in place? (And no, I’m not saying to regulate the breeding of AG’s!) I am also wondering how many people actually plant the crosses they made? I know many do, but approximately how many?

Steve, it would be, at the very least, interesting to view the soil tests of each site side by side to possibly, and I say possibly, isolate a reason for the 845’s peculiar stem behavior. There was obviously something different in the growing medium/location/something, which caused an alteration in the stem lengths. It is things like this that I am very curious about. Is genetics responsible? It seems unlikely. So, if not genetics, what was it? Simply answering that question, or forming an educated opinion that could be tested could go a long way toward solving short stem issues. Has anyone else grown a pumpkin from a cutting? How did it perform as compared to the previous year? It would be interesting to plant several seeds from the same pumpkin in the same patch and compare the results. Hopefully, I will have that opportunity next year with seeds from my own pumpkin.

What I am about to say next may sound like an inflammatory remark, I assure you it is NOT. I just don’t know how to word it so it doesn’t come out wrong. I mean no ill will/disrespect/insult, so please bear with me…

I have heard several people describe crossing as a “crap shoot” or “luck of the draw”, what have you. If that were the case, and those people truly believed that crossing was just a blind shot in the dark, what is wrong with open pollinated seeds? Wouldn’t that give you the same odds as a controlled cross? Provided the pumpkin developed normally of course. Again, I don’t intend to start an argument

1/16/2005 8:58:59 PM

Follansbee, Wv

here, so don’t take this wrong. I am just trying to understand.

1/16/2005 9:00:06 PM

Long Island,New York

Now you did it Monty

1/16/2005 9:15:10 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

Open pollination scenario.....You could get Hubbard squash pollination and that'd sure stop that line real fast.
At least with controlled pollination, you know you have a true AG in there for the next generation.

1/16/2005 9:37:26 PM

Follansbee, Wv

Fair enough southern. Controlled pollination provides a true AG. Now on to another question:

I am quoting Joe Ailts from his Pumpkin Genetics article

"In pumpkins, orange color is a dominant allele, and green color is a recessive allele. If the egg contains the orange allele and the sperm contains the green allele, the orange color will be expressed, because it has dominance over the recessive green allele. The only way to produce a green pumpkin is if both the egg and sperm contain the recessive green allele."

Are there any other genes/alleles suspected to have dominance?

1/17/2005 8:28:45 AM

Deer Park, WI

Hi Monty-

Double check with Welty on this one, but I think the only trait that has been identified is the color trait, and even still it isnt simple dominance and recessiveness.

Unfortunatly the scientific community doesnt have an interest in AG genetics, and probably wont until our big pumpers are able to feed third world countries or something. Until then, educated grower speculation is the best we have.

1/17/2005 8:51:39 AM

Follansbee, Wv

Thank you Joe. Then it appears that, after all this, the best crosses to make for now would be between two lines, with different family trees, and each tree having as few branches as possible. In other words, a long line of selfed, or even sibbed, pumpkins in each parents history. Provided, of course, the ancestry has displayed the desired qualities, and has shown improvement through the generations. Correct?

1/17/2005 12:28:43 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

bingo!

1/17/2005 1:25:58 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Now do we see the interest I have in the 451 Ford '76?

1/17/2005 1:29:52 PM

Atlanta, Georgia

There are chinese scientists researching the phenotypes of ag's but I can't find the source anymore. Maybe a deep search would find their info. I just don't have time.

1/17/2005 1:53:50 PM

Follansbee, Wv

Well, dang it Kyle, why didn't you just tell me that in the first place! HAHAHA


I had a '76 Ford once Steve, but it was a 351...

1/17/2005 3:16:20 PM

Ontario, Canada.

MontyJ, You did a good raise a good issue. I agree with most of the comments here on this thread. I Like doc's comments about building the soil. I still believe though that there is much science to be learned. I am not talking about our own internal educated guesses...The "Jethro Bodine" pumpkin school is just getting started for most of us. I truely believe researching this and other topics helps the newbie grower close the gap the heavy hitters enjoy.

AS stated above the purpose of this is to show some of the fundamentals of growing for a beginner. In quantum theory or for someone planning to get into pumpkins the crap shoot (rolling dice) is a game of chance, so it is a handy vehicle for explaining the basics.

1/22/2005 7:41:39 AM