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Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

When crossing 2 plants, lets say a 1370 x 1367 for example, what determines which plant you use for the male(pollinator) and which you use for the female.
Lets say that both plants are growing equally strong.

1/17/2005 9:16:47 PM

Pumpkintown, SC

Others may disagree, but, before I would answer that question, I would ask you, "what results are you hoping to accomplish by the cross"? BF

1/17/2005 10:32:44 PM

Follansbee, Wv

This is just my personal opinion Tom, but I would reverse cross the plants. If both are equally strong, than you double your chances of a good cross. From what I understand, each parent contributes it's share of genes whether it's the male or female. So it doesn't really matter. But frankly, if one plant does look better than the other, I would make it the female. That would make your chances of producing a fruit that much better.

1/17/2005 11:02:17 PM

Ohio

I would think hes trying to accomplish a BIG pumkin. But the cross hes talking about is just a example.. thats a great question Tom, Im curious as well.

1/17/2005 11:41:28 PM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

Lets assume that you have already picked out your line up based upon color, shape size and the rest of the traits that you so desire (I have), that said, my goal would be for a large beautiful pumpkin (not being funny here)lets assume again that both plants are doing fairly well, you know the genetics of both plants (thats why you chose to cross them)how do you choose which to use as the pollinator and which to use as the female.

1/17/2005 11:57:18 PM

Omaha, NE (N41-15-42 )

If I understand you tom, let me rephrase the question, because I would be curious too. Are there some desireable traits that anyone has noticed to be carried to a greater extent through one gender vs the other? Like that male pattern baldness passes from the mother because it sits on the x chromosome.

So, if I wanted to cross my famous 278 Wickless with a 1260 Weir, and have high hopes that the resulting seed would produce a large pumpkin, is it anyone's opinion that a 278 x 1260 would do better or worse than a 1260 x 278?

1/18/2005 1:28:42 AM

Omaha, NE (N41-15-42 )

realizing, of course, that the 278 would be hindered by the inferior genes of the 1260.

1/18/2005 1:29:57 AM

Cologne / Germany

I watched this over the last 3 years and in my opinion some plants genetically proved themselves to be better as a "giver" than a "taker" concerning weight. Eg. 1153 Eaton as male contributed to some crosses 1000+, 1153 as female plant as far as I know not. 1260 Weir - many excellent results as a pollinator in 2004, somehow better than what we know from it being the female (although it goes heavy all the time).
I guess that´s why some growers go with plants in secondary patches intended for pollination purposes only.

1/18/2005 4:22:27 AM

Long Island,New York

As far a science goes....I don't know.We don't know. They don't know.
As far as popular opinion goes....pollinate by the heavier seed. Pollinate the 278 with the 1260 and you give the impression "your on the way up"..you get more "looks" from growers which, eventually will mean someone will grow one, which gives it a better chance of getting a big one than if it wasn't grown. The odds are that none will get grown from either cross because there's too many other seeds out there that look better because of the 278 wieght. Although the genetics for big may be in the 278 its a hard package to sell. Its like the saying "don't judge a book by its cover"...however true that may be, its easier to sell the better looking books.
I think the best way is to cross it with the clone you saved from your plant that grew the biggest pumpkin last year........

1/18/2005 8:21:09 AM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

Also you have to figure in an alternate cross. We had a few times last year where the only males were on the plant in the greenhouse. So everything got crossed with the 231 Engel.

1/18/2005 9:10:56 AM

Ljubljana, Slovenia

Female and male in principle each provide half of the genetic information into zygote (fertilized egg cell). However, genetic info is far from enough to support life and all the “rest”, i.e. complete cell structure, is provided by the female egg cell. Cell organelles are thus inherited only via female. They include mitochondria (organelles for respiration) and proplastids (organelles present only in plants: they develop into photosynthetic chloroplasts and plastids, which accumulate starch or provide orange/yellow color because of accumulation of carotenoids). Btw, these organelles also contain genetic information that is independent of nuclear genes so females in fact provide a little more than 50 % of genes.

Anyway, my point is that mitochondria and chloroplasts are very important for the growth vigor and they are in inherited ONLY via females!... OK, the truth is that a lot of genes responsible for their function are still in the nucleus, where both parents contribute equally…

I do not know if color of pumpkins derives from plastids (any info on that?) but if it does then females are for the same reason more important for the color than males…

1/18/2005 9:48:27 AM

Ljubljana, Slovenia

I have checked… plastids (called chromoplasts) indeed provide color in pumpkins. Interesting... are females therefore more responsible for the color because they provide plastids??

An article that is about chromoplasts and cites an example in pumpkins: http://jxb.oupjournals.org/cgi/content/full/51/346/873

1/18/2005 10:14:35 AM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

Shannon, understood, not all will work out as planned and you must have a backup plan, what I'm just trying to understand is: you are crossing 2 plants with all cicumstances favorable (both have male and female flowers), why you would choose one as the pollinator over the other (this is after you have selected the two plants as crosses based upon the color, shape or size and traits that you would like to try to cross back into these plants).

1/18/2005 10:33:33 AM

Pumpkintown, SC

I guess I'm a little dense, but, I still don't understand your question Tom. I thought I knew what you were asking when Matt re-asked it but now I'm really lost.
"you are crossing 2 plants," this sounds to me that you have already determined the crosses. "Why you would choose one as the pollinator over the other?" If you are committed to "crossing" them and not selfing, then each would serve as each others pollinator.
Obviously this does not answer your question because I have yet to truly grasp your query. However, it may lend itself to helping you ask it differently so as to at least help "me" understand your true question. BF

1/18/2005 7:39:25 PM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

Snake oil,
I think Tom is referring to a one way cross. If you has the 1260, and the 898, what woiuld be the better cross:

1260 X 898 ?
or
898 X 1260 ?

I remember someone mentioning that plant growth habit is influenced, or more influenced by the female side. I don't know why, or if this is even true/correct.

Doug

1/18/2005 9:45:17 PM

Pumpkintown, SC

Is the question simply, which cross would produce better offspring? BF

1/18/2005 10:14:14 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

898 x 1260

1/21/2005 9:16:01 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Urban jungle, thanks for the link above. It has provided me a few questions to spent time researching the web for answers.

I try to understand the many opinions on developing fruit and its pollinator not affecting the growing progeny. However I seldom see how this is possible. It is an area which I have yet to focus my attention on. We just don't know what we don't know. Sliding the scale to the research articles can help us all to determine better actions in the future patches of our dreams. Continuing to point the arrow in the direction of science will help us to discover that the earth in your patch may not be flat.

Russ L.

1/22/2005 6:59:55 AM