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Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Let's asy that I acquired a very old seed from a line thought once significant & now lost to the willy-nilly breeding practices of the past & present.

I know that we can all rationalize our crosses, but heirloom grade genetics are had to come by & seeds aren't like good wine or Scotch....

If antique seeds could be germinated in a propagation lab, would we prefer to sib or self pollinate them. Ideally we'd do both by setting & keeping multiple fruit.

The seeds come from an era of open field pollinations isolated only be the distance of a bee's flight where the pollen was likely derived from the same patch due to the rural living of the day. So sib, self & multiple pollinations would have been the norm for these lines where they were grown. But the grower wouldn't have known.

For preservation's sake, which would be better, sib or self?

Why?

Thanks,

Steve

1/19/2005 9:36:50 AM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

Maybe my thinking is off on this but why are we trying to reinvent an old seed when the new crosses have shown their potential. I can see if weights were decreasing instead of increasing. It would be like trying to keep aspirin the same when there is much better pain killers out there. Stupid analogy but only one I could think of. Shannon

1/19/2005 10:38:54 AM

Cologne / Germany

I don´t think so Shannon. An experienced grower with today´s knowledge about what crosses had to be done (and not) in the last 10 or more years to reach the point where we stand today might start over with "classic seeds", from a different angle though and in less time.
Sibbing is gathering different genetic traits from the same origin of seed, so I would prefer the sib for preservation.

1/19/2005 11:09:41 AM

Pumpkintown, SC

To me, the answer is clear...and most easily put this way:
1) if, you are striving towards homozygosity or are hoping to produce seeds that will in turn produce pumpkins like the mother(keeping in mind that at the time of pollination, you won't know what the mother will end up being like)...self.
2) if, on the otherhand, you are striving towards line-breeding or hoping to produce seeds that will in turn produce pumpkins like the mother and all her sisters...sibb.
My answer to your question is sibb!
Of course, my question to you(since you are wading in to my pool of interest <:^}> Which seed are you hoping to revive? Private email would be good. BF

1/19/2005 11:24:16 AM

Oakland, CA, USA

I agree with Floh on both points. "Starting over" with a systematic approach could yield amazing results, and they might also be good to reintroduce into today's plants to see what comes out in the wash. I'd choose sibbing, because it would help keep a certain degree of genetic diversity that would necessarily be lost with selfing alone, it also means you have to grow more than one plant, which means more seeds, which means a further diversity and more germplasm to help safe-guard against losing this gene-source to accidents. Ideally, I'd want to grow out a number of them in isolation from other pumpkin strains and let the natural pollinators do their stuff; open pollination seems to be the key to preservation of genetic diversity. -Erin

1/19/2005 11:24:53 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

The seeds are from the 451 lb pumpkin grown by Bob Ford in 1976 that beat the 403 Warnock '03. It does indeed offer the experienced breeder (not me - LOL) the rare opportunity to work with Pre-Atlantic Giant genes of the sort that Ed Gancarz got from Wright. "Stuff" got all mixed up in the 1980's after Howard Dill released his Atlantic Giant.

If these suckers germinate & produce viable seeds, then breeders today have a chance to rewrite the past 30 years or simply try to created a "vigor-cross" if such things really do exist.

But we'll never know if the line is lost & we came dangerously close to having this happen.

Call it an "Heirloom Giant" if you will.

1/19/2005 11:44:14 AM

Cologne / Germany

Wow, a 28 years old seed from the good times...how do you plan to germinate that seed and how was it stored over the years?

1/19/2005 12:02:45 PM

Cologne / Germany

PS, I would play some Don McLean songs during germination it might help LOL

1/19/2005 12:05:01 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

One of our club members is a professional plant propagator & I just learned he has access to the labs at Uconn. Nic Welty is also looking into this matter at OSU.

Germinating the seeds won't be too difficult if the embryoes are viable. potassium nitrate & GA4+7 (750-1000 ppm) shoul do it.

But keeping them growing will require a tissue culture environment in a sterile lab setting. Uconn & OSU have these facilities.

1/19/2005 12:19:13 PM

Ljubljana, Slovenia

Btw, our lab also works with tissue cultures... Someone send me 845 and I’ll make 1000s of them! :()

1/19/2005 12:32:41 PM

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

Good luck getting those beauties going,I'd sib em self em and clone them as well.

1/19/2005 1:26:16 PM

Pumpkintown, SC

Oops, I think I just soiled myself.
Glad to hear you are SERIOUSLY dealing with them. Good luck Steve!! BF

1/19/2005 2:42:04 PM

Syracuse, NY

i am guessing you just spilled a peat pot?

1/19/2005 5:52:52 PM

Choctaw, OK

i would self before sibb. And i dont know why? lol. If you want to preserve the line and dont care about size, have two fruit on each plant, one sibbed by the other and a self on each plant. Then you can try seeds from each and see what results you get. I wonder if there would be any difference? i bet the self seeds would have more recessive traits, could be good or bad.

1/19/2005 6:51:55 PM

Butler, Ohio

Steve, If anyone can do it OSU can. They got all kinds of cool stuff over there.

1/20/2005 8:20:13 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Steve, You are always at the front of the pumpkin line. Great, exciting work. I hope you can get them onboard.

1/22/2005 6:22:30 AM

Ohio

I would grow two pumpkins on each plant(four Pumpkins), I would sibb one,(on each plant) and self one(On each plant)

1/22/2005 3:13:08 PM

Pumpkintown, SC

Good one Eric, but truthfully I think it was #2...you know, the stuff good for the patch <:^}>

1/22/2005 11:58:17 PM

Syracuse, NY

lol----

1/24/2005 7:29:55 PM