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Nashville, TN

I have been researching self-pollination, open pollination, Sib pollination and plant/crop genetics through the university databases. Seems that the majority of studies have shown inbreeding depression occuring within the first 3 generations of in/sib breeding among the majority of plant species.

On the other hand, studies looking at hybridization or the 'out crossing' of two genetically 'unrelated' families (or subspecies..) has consistantly shown a substancial increase in size, vigor, fertility of the F1 generation.

Looking at the history of the AG (which I'm still ASSUMING is the preemminant ancester of all the other Giants, since no one's given me any other 'ancestral GP lines' information...) it APPEARS that the regular influx of 'unrelated' white Squash genetics may have had the most effect of creating the giant squash through hybrid vigor.

Those of you that are regularly 'selfing' or 'sib-crossing' your GP lines. Do you notice more incidence of sterility, disease problems, vines that don't thrive?

Since I'm starting this experiment with Commercial seeds - I'm assuming from many of the posts on this board - that these seeds are most likely from a mix of parents with a high percentage of genetic variability. So should I consider 'selfing' 50% of these plants, and 'cross-breeding' within the same 'strains', and then the last 25% doing experimental hybridizing between the three strains?

This will give me 50% 'linebred pure' strains/seeds, 25% 'pure' strains/seeds, and 25% hybrid strains/seeds with which to start the second year of this experiment. Then I can compare my F2 generation results with my F1 generation results and see if 'purifying' or 'hybridizing' gave me the best results. So that the F3, F4, etc generations will be a continuation of the breeding practice that proves to throw the best results.

2/24/2005 5:00:58 PM

northern indiana

I am sure that you have realized that top notch seeds are very difficult to come by. However, selfed and sibed seeds of top notch parentage are much easier to come by. You can save yourself a season or two by simply looking for seeds that have displayed traits you desire and looking for self or sibed decendants. That said, you most likely have also realized that no true breeder exists in the AG family. Your store bought seeds are likely just as you suspect, a grab bag of genetics. With a little research you will be able to locate seeds that have shown a pattern of frequent display of the traits you desire. The diarys here are a good place to start, lots of pics and info about what seed is doing what. Tom mentioned some good seeds that would be hard to get "BUT" sibed and selfed decendants of those seeds are not too hard to get. Try posting in the seed exchange for sibs and selfs of those seeds he mentioned. You will be miles ahead of your store bought seeds.
Eric

2/24/2005 7:16:33 PM

Cameron,ontario Team Lunatic

ST
All the seeds mentioned on this site are from the Dill's Atlantic Giants strain. Howard developed the breed in the 70's. So, if you want to grow a truly big pumpkin, you must use this strain. All the names people keep mentioning are the growers themselfs and they put their names on their pumpkins seeds. eg. Mr Bobier grew two AG seeds from other growers, Mr Lloyd & Mr Mettler. He crossed the two plants and the pumpkin grew to be 845 lbs. The seeds from the pumpkin became known as 845 Bobier, but it's still an Atlantic Giant strain. You want to look for different characteristics in other pumpkins and match them up. Check out the seach engine on this site, it will help you understand. Hope this helps.....Phil

2/24/2005 7:37:53 PM

Cincinnati,OH

Scienceteacher, A lot of long time growers and breeders only visit this site about once a week so it might take some time to get these questions fully answered. Type in 609 Laemmle in the search box and go to "origins of todays giants" There is some good info there.

2/24/2005 8:18:21 PM

Ohio

Teacher, if you need some AG seeds to mess around with I would be happy to send you some, all you have to do is email me and ill give you my address. Then send me a bubble envelope with postage(around a buck) and thats it. Id be happy to send you enough for what your doing.

Brooks

2/24/2005 10:47:39 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Even with all this data that we share, sometimes its hard
to know what we're looking at. Most of the seeds that are
readily available as trades or gifts from other growers,
... its hard to find too much genetic variability in them.
Most of them have a 723 or 846 in their background. Or if
not they still share a lot of the genes from just a few
seeds of a few years ago.

Much of the color that we have in the AG today originates
from just one 609 Laemmele. One!

As I write this, I'm wondering if it means anything, or
even makes sense... ;-)

No one can argue with the result, however!

2/24/2005 11:31:18 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

I guess what I'm saying is, after looking at this data for
years, I'm more confused than ever. I do believe, the best
way to make a hot seed is to get a top grower to grow it.

2/24/2005 11:33:10 PM

Follansbee, Wv

Teacher,

I have done some research myself into the history of AG's. I would not consider the Atlantic Giant to be the preemminent ancestor of todays champion pumpkins; rather, they are the result of a previous cross breeding program developed by Mr. Howard Dill. I would consider one or more of the original varieties he used to create the AG as the preemminent ancestor. There is a book available, "The Pumpkin King" about Howard Dill which may provide you with some of the answers you seek. While I have read several posts here on BP.com concerning hybrid vigor, I believe it would be very tough to achieve due to the constant, random crossing by hundreds of growers every year. As was hinted at by Cliff earlier, most, if not all, AG's are related somewhere in their lineage. In other words, hybrid vigor is not something we seek to achieve with cross pollination, but simply to attempt to pass on the desired traits of one plant or another into its progeny. To delve any further than that would require a team of genetics engineers.
As far as selfing/sibbing goes, I have read numerous posts about some pumpkins having very few seeds. I have never looked into the family history of those particular plants to see if there was a strong genetic connection that could be considered a factor.
Your experiments sound interesting. You may want to do some additional reading through the past few years diaries. I believe several people have attempted crossing the AG with the Prizewinner and Big Max. Perhaps those growers could share their information or even some seeds from the resulting pumpkins with you.

2/25/2005 8:40:36 AM

Utah

In 2004 I grew a 891 lb pumpkin that is a 2nd generation selfed seed.
891 Tanner 04 (735 Pukos x Self)

the 735 Pukos (846 Calai x Self)

you can find pictures of my 891 in my 04 diary:

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryView.asp?
season=2004&grower=3085&action=L

Several growers grew the 735 Pukos in 04. I think most of them had the same shape, especially when the pumpkmins were younger/smaller.
gordon

2/25/2005 1:10:50 PM

On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

I have read some of the posts about hybrid vigor, cross pollination etc and have always had one question that I never have really been able to get an answer to. If a took say a 723 Bobier and self pollinated it, what would be the chances of one seed taken from the pumpkin produced being anything like the original, anything resembling the original 723 as to the ability to grow huge pumpkins? If I grew all the seeds from my cross, self pollinated them and took a seed from the biggest of my second generation cross what would the odds be of a seed from that pumpkin being the new "723." How many times would I have to keep choosing and self-pollinating pumpkins to get the next 723 and is there any guarantee it would ever happen? Also, does anyone know how many chromosomes are in an "Atlantic Giant Pumpkin?"

2/27/2005 10:24:08 AM

Pumpkintown, SC

Let's see...
1)slim, but your best bet going.
2)slim, but a better bet
3)approx 5 and no
4)uh, no
Sorry, but your answer is basically this: Selfing(or better yet sibbing) is your best bet at replicating the qualities/characteristics of a given pumpkin. Generally 5 generations is accepted but, that being said, the chances of actually obtaining the results you desire are still quite low.
We've all done it(or at least started it) and we will all continue doing it(or at least starting it) and most of us will never complete the mission nor get the results we seek. I for one will continue though. Good luck, BF

2/27/2005 11:06:17 PM

Long Island,New York

40 chromosomes

2/28/2005 3:38:53 PM

Utah

humans have 46 ... hummm .. pumpkins are almost as complex as we are !

2/28/2005 4:55:32 PM

Utah

... how many functional genes in a AG ?

2/28/2005 5:25:00 PM

Nashville, TN

For some reason I am not able to email privately through BigPumpkins - maybe it doesn't like my particular server?

You may email me at: clifford695@cs.com

I've mailed out three B.E.s today to nice people with some extra seeds to share.. I only have space for 1-2 more varieties - since I am planning to grow 2-3 plants of each.. This will tell me if the seeds are producing 'consistantly' or if one good plant is a fluke and the rest are duds.

Got to hit the garden books.. Put my Big Max seedlings out in the coldframe last week and I'm getting yellowing on the edges of the leaves. Used store-bought potting soil for the first time (my other AG and Prizewinners are in home-produced potting soil...) I think that something must be missing in the commercial soil - since the other plants in the coldframe are doing fine (Rhubarb, etc....) Temp been stable and soil moisture is just right...I use heatlamps to make sure!**grin**

2/28/2005 5:43:55 PM