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Ohio

I have had 4 or the last 5 Pumpkins have white seeds with no shinny seed coat including the seeds out of the 1260 Weir pumpkin I grew this year.These white seeds are all from using the male 1260 as the male pollinator.The only seeds that wasn't white but was dark brown was from my 763Bosworth'05 (842 Eaton x 1260 Weir). Mostly all the seeds including the brown seeds had that Weir trademarking so to speak on the seeds just like original 1260 Weir seed has.
Reason for the post is because white seeds have always puzzled me because Im not really 100% sure if its Genetics or just the conditions the pumpkin was grown under.Just wondering your thoughts about the white seeds and also if anyone eles has had white seeds using the 1260 as pollinator.

9/27/2005 9:12:15 AM

Knopp, Germany

Brooks, here is an interesting thread on this subject:

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/MsgBoard/ViewThread.asp?b=3&p=96629

owen

9/27/2005 9:18:11 AM

Knopp, Germany

Just got done ready that thread again myself and saw that you were already on it...sorry...owen

9/27/2005 9:21:02 AM

Ohio

Thats ok Owen, I was looking for that thread,lol.

thanks,
Brooks

9/27/2005 1:45:35 PM

Ohio

Owen, I always thought that the pollen used to pollinate this years fruit determines what will be next years fruit But also determines this years color of the seed. Or do you think the color of the seed will not show up untill next years fruit also.

9/27/2005 1:57:53 PM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

You're asking some good questions Brook!

9/27/2005 2:07:22 PM

Knopp, Germany

Brooks, I do not know. This year on my 471 Beachy, the seed ocat was white, actually creamy white as I recall. I am really looking forward to see what my seeds look like.

9/28/2005 1:13:23 AM

Hilpoltstein, Bavaria, Germany

My bet would be that the pollinator has no influence on the seed color. The size, shape and color of the seeds should only be determined by the plant that has the pumpkin on it just like with fruit shape, color, etc.

9/28/2005 4:22:03 AM

Berlin,mi.(zuhlke2@hotmail.com)

it seems to me that pumpkins with good orange color tend to have white seeds. the 1125 frantz the 1101 northrup and now my 621 zuhlke (1101 x self) all have white seeds. i'm not sure what this means, just an observation.

9/28/2005 7:10:19 AM

Anamosa, IA BPIowegian@aol.com

Not always true about orange pumpkins and white seeds. My 808 Beachy was about the most brilliant orange I have ever seen, and it had brown seeds. Too bad it rotted 5 days before weighoff.

9/28/2005 8:58:41 AM

Rhode Island

as long as the seeds produce competition quality ag s i dont care if they are purple with white stripes

i do tend to think the color is determined by genetics but im no expert at that level of the sciences
if calcium ,etc can increase wall thickness then its very possible that some other mineral or soil addetive could determine seed coat color i suppose

9/28/2005 9:25:51 PM

Montoursville, PA

Age, of the fruit determines color too. Early seed removals have shown me less than fully mature seed. They have all been cream, to white, with no seed coat hardness or shine, in my short years, of experience.

9/28/2005 9:33:55 PM

Syracuse, NY

the seeds themselves are the first indications a new cross has been made. i believe that possibly recessive and dominant genes are at work as soon as the two come together.
when you throw chemicals together, there is almost always a new color, odor or other indication that it happened. i think, the same with seeds. eric

9/29/2005 1:15:20 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

All AG seeds are white....but some have another coating that has grown on the outside. This second "cover" ranged from tan to brown in color & is shinier than the uncovered seed. The second coating is genetic in origin though the color might be influenced by environment. As Doc said, maturity impacts color too.

15-20 years ago, growers of the day found that tan-brown seeds grew orange Pumpkins while white ones grew Squash.

I think it was the crossing of old Gancarz/central US seed lines with the line bred Dill/CA seeds rhat mixed up the seed coat/color issue but I have no evidence to back this.

It could probably also be the 609 Laemmle in the 567.5 Mombert???

Does anyone know WHEN the previously consistant seed color to fruit color standard started to unravel? Knowing this might help determine which cross (or crosses) mixed things back up again.

9/29/2005 5:21:51 AM

Ohio

LOL @ pURPLE WITH STRIPES! id like to drink a few beers with you one day dick,you would really have me in tears then.

Heres the funny thing,the seeds out of my 845 (1097 x 1260) are small and white and are the size of the 1097 Beachy seed(its mother) My 699 seed from my 1260 Weir x 1370 Rose look exactly like my 845 seed.If you would put them side by side you wouldnt be able to tell them apart,they look like they come out of the same pumpkin. I think the 1097 beachy seeds where white,but its hard to tell since the seeds look like they was in your pants pocket that just went through the washer and dryer.

Seeds out of my 763(842 x 1260) are brown just like the 842 seed is and looks exactly like he 842 eaton.

Now my 626 (1446 eaton x 1260 weir) Are white and not brown like the 1446 its mother.

I like this subject on seed color and I guess i will never figure this out,I try to but dont think i ever will.

9/29/2005 5:31:32 AM

Knopp, Germany

Here is a link to a picture of the 874.5 Dieffenbaugher 04* seed:

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=31792

The next page in my diary shows the 471 Beachy * seed. The Dieff is brown with outer seed coat and the Beachy is white, with no outer seed coat.

Neither have the 609 Laemmle or the 567.5 Mombert in the heirarchy tree. They both have the 579.5 Nesbitt 86 and 500 Gancarz 87 (progeny of the 579.5) on the male pollinator side, about 7 generations ago. I did notice that the Dieff also had the 355.6 Dill 85* in it's tree, and the Beachy did not.

I wonder if Alan Nesbitt remembers what color the seeds from his 579.5 where, the pumpkin was orange. Or maybe if he knows what the 500 Gancarz 87 seeds looked like.

9/29/2005 6:49:28 AM

Ohio

G,Now that makes sense,never thought of it like that.

Tremor, your exactly right on,what was the first white seed that came out of a AG. That would help out alot.

9/29/2005 6:57:00 AM

Knopp, Germany

Further research shows that the Beachy also had some 355.6 Dill 85* in its tree. It is on the mothers side of the cross.

9/29/2005 6:57:50 AM

Ohio

Martin, I think your right also,lol. The 750 Wentzell (940 Wentzell x 810 Dill) Is a nice thick brown seed,But,,,,I grew the 940 Wentzell last year and it produced a small white seed with a shinny seed coat. The 750 Wentzell I grew this year which i crossed with the 1260 had Jumbo Size brown seeds.Used to be I thought my 572 Bosworth seeds where the biggest i have ever seen,But the seeds that came out of this 750 wentzell pumpkin are the Exra large Jumbo size which put my 572,s to shame. Wentzells seeds always seem to be big and produce big seeds.

9/29/2005 7:05:29 AM

Knopp, Germany

Thanks Brooks. But, why do you keep calling me Martin?

9/29/2005 7:11:40 AM

Knopp, Germany

Never mind, just saw Martin's post on this thread, sorry Brooks.

9/29/2005 7:16:26 AM

Knopp, Germany

The 355.6 Dill 85* is in the heirarchy tree of the 567.5 Mombert.

The 567.5 Mombert is documented to have had white seeds.

The 471 Beachy * has white seeds but, does not have the Mombert or Laemmle in its tree. It has the 355.6 Dill 85* in its tree also though. The 355.6 Dill was of unknown parents unfortunately.

The 1260 Weir has the 567.5 Mombert scattered through out its tree.

The 355.6 Dill 85* is the only thing that is common with these three seeds.

So, 2 pumpkins have white seeds that had the 355.6 Dill in the tree, the 567.5 and the 471.

Does anyone have more examples of white seeds to do more research on?

9/29/2005 9:37:27 AM

Knopp, Germany

More data:

The 878.5 Greer is documented to have had white seeds. It does not have the 567.5 Mombert in its tree, but it does have the 355.6 Dill 85*

The following seeds are all documented as being white, and they have the 567.5 Mombert in their trees:
859.4 Dalton
850.5 Hester
715 Dill

So, very unscientific conclusion is that you do not have to have the 567.5 in the tree to have white seeds, but up till now with my very small pool of seeds I checked, you do need to have the 355.6 Dill 85*. Perhaps it is the seed that produced the trait, again it has unknown parents, that is a shame.

9/29/2005 9:49:36 AM

Indiana

the 609 was a tan seed, and the 575 dill was a white seed

Tom

9/29/2005 9:55:25 AM

Hudsonville, Michigan (michiganpumpkins@sbcglobal.net)

Great thread. But just FYI, 715 Dill is a tan seed. It is apparently noted incorrectly on the aggc. I called Danny Dill last spring and he confirms that 715 is tan.
Frank

9/29/2005 9:58:42 AM

Knopp, Germany

Thanks Tom. Again another example of a seed that only has the 356.5 Dill 85* in its tree and produced white seeds.

Thanks Frank!

9/29/2005 10:03:57 AM

Rhode Island

this way beyond me just gimmie the dam seed and lets get growin l o l

9/29/2005 10:49:19 PM

Knopp, Germany

LOL pap, sometimes I get to wrapped up in this genetics stuff, and I still do not really understand it. But I do enjoy very much doing the research, it is like digging into a good history book.......

9/30/2005 12:13:21 AM

New York

The 579.5 seeds are brown(still have a few). 500 Gancarz '87 were also brown...and the 644/478/472 Waterman seeds were extremely large and brown..some of the biggest I can remember.
I grew 100 plants in '86 and it was pretty much brown seeds orange / white seeds green.
The first real surprise for me was the 574 Mitchell true green '87...grown from the 671 Gancarz true orange '86. Both seeds were their proper "brown and white". The 574 grew all green fruit with white seeds. The 589 (offspring of 574) grew white seeds as expected...but...it's offspring grew orange pumpkins. I thought it was a fluke when my 535.5 in '90 grew straight orange from the seed...seeds were kind of a brown/white mix on the 535.5. It was later proven that all the 589 white seeds produced straight orange. The interesting thing is that all the examples above were either straight orange or green,no mix like a squmpkin...they started orange or green from a female.
It's now quite normal to see white seeds grow orange...many times the better looking ones. I believe it goes back to Gancarz growing green/orange in the same patch next to each other. All the fruit above were open pollinated. Alan

9/30/2005 1:50:18 PM

Ohio

Owen,thanks for doing that research, I enjoy it also and your exactly right,there is no better way to put it, its like a good old History book.

Alan,That was some great information!



Thanks again
Brooks

10/1/2005 8:45:41 PM

Berlin,mi.(zuhlke2@hotmail.com)

to add to this thread. it is very interesting that both my pumpkins from the 1125 frantz had white seeds one was a cross with 1101 northrup and the other was a 1125 x self. also the pumpkin on my 2nd 1101 plant crossed with the 1125 had white seeds. the only pumpkin this year with brown seeds was the 915.5 dieff. x self and it was a brown seed to start with.

11/3/2005 3:22:58 PM