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Knopp, Germany

This evening a question came up about selfed seeds, and how good they might be, so I did a little bit of research. This is what I found.

The most famous selfed seed seems to be the 687 Lloyd 95. It produced the 909.5 Lloyd 96 and the 875 Lloyd 96 UOW, that were crossed the next year to produce the now famous 935 Lloyd 97. Of course most of us know that the 935 Lloyd 97 is either on the mothers side or the fathers side of the following famous and highly coveted modern seeds:
842 Eaton 02 4 generations back fathers side
582 Hester 01 same
1225.4 Jutras 03 same
1097.5 Beachy 02 same father and mothers side
1104.5 Hester 04 same fathers side
1068 Wallace 03 same mothers side
805 Pukos 00 same on fathers side, with the addition of having the 1092 Burke 98 (935 Lloyd 97 x self) on mothers side
723 Bobier same on mothers side, but only 3 generations back
845 Bobier same on mothers side, but only 3 generations back

10/24/2005 1:32:02 AM

Knopp, Germany

The next most famous self pollinated seed that I found was the 735 Pukos 01. It is the 846 Calai 99 x Self. It interesting enough, does not have the 935 Lloyd in is heirarchy tree at all. It is one of the few, if not only consistent heavy producer without the 935 Lloyd in its tree.

So when researching what to grow, look at seeds that have the 935 Lloyd in their trees, even if that seed has not been grown yet. A couple of good examples are:
692 Andrews 04 (1016 Daletas 01 x 935 Lloyd 97)
550 Andrews 04 EST (935 Lloyd 97 x 865 Mettler 98) BTW this is the same cross as the 723 Bobier 99 UOW.

Thoughts?

10/24/2005 1:40:02 AM

Knopp, Germany

Yes I do, and I am sure he will read this as well. But if you would plant this seed, why don't you post on the seed swappers board that you WILL plant that seed you might be surprised how many growers answer, even if you do not have anything to trade.

However, before you make you mind up about that, let me make another post to give you an idea of just how many potentially great seeds there are out there....continued...

10/24/2005 7:40:22 AM

Knopp, Germany

There are a lot of seeds out there with the same crosses as the more famous ones. Here are a few examples:

723/845 Bobier same cross seeds:
1131 Checkon 99
838 Bobier 02
714 Bobier 02
528 Kuhn 03
362 Van Iderstine 03 EST

842 Eaton 02 same cross seeds:
1177.8 Kuhn 02
1038 Emmons 02
855 Kuhn 01
707 Toftness 01
419 Pukos 02 UOW

805 Pukos 00 same cross seeds:
543 Zaychkowsky 05

846 Calai 99 same cross seeds:
1074 Calai 03
827 Garrell 04
807 Beachy 02
736 Garrell 03

898 Knauss 00 same cross seeds:
783 Smith 01
615 Swarts 02 UOW
503 Beauchemin 03 EST
500 Saylor 04 UOW

1260.4 Weir 01 same cross seeds :
720 Scherber 02 UOW
653.5 Christianson 03

1104.5 Hester 03 same cross seeds:
992.5 Galsier 05
914 Sandvik 05
751 Rockwell 04
556 Mongeon 03 EST
500 Wallace 03

Some of the less famous ones have already been proven, like the 500 Wallace 03 or the 503 Beauchemin 03 EST. The others could turn out to be great also, but they gotta get put in the ground.

10/24/2005 7:42:20 AM

Austria

That is great info. Thanks Owen for posting. Coming back to the topic of selfed seeds I have no experience here, but I ask myself, if a selfed seed may be just as good as the original that was selfed (its parent). Assuming it is like that there are really a lot of seeds, that could be obtained quite easier than all those superhot seeds and worth giving a try. I have a 930 Barlow that I think i could give a try, but i am not sure yet.

10/24/2005 9:36:55 AM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Self first, then cross, seems to be the theory most cited and
practical experience seems to validate.

All of the great seeds that descended from the 935 Lloyd
have that characteristic... because the 935 most mostly
"selfed". Crosses made from that seed usually turned out
to be good seeds themselves.

If you turn back the clock to another famous seed, the 567.5
Mombert... that seed in it's day was as good as any.
Anecdotal evidence seems to suggest that the seed that
Kirk Mombert got from Helmut Laemmele had been through
several years of inbreeding. Then when Kirk crossed it,
there you have an awesome seed.

I grew the 891 Tanner 04 this year, which was the 753 Pukos
selfed, (which was the 846 Calai selfed). This plant was
solid, but a tad slower than the others in the patch. Too
much selfing might not be great... but now that I've crossed
it with the 981 Zunino (orange!), I'm planning to try it
out next year. (494.5 Warren 05)

10/24/2005 12:38:15 PM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

What are your(anybody's) thoughts on selfing vs. sibbing. I've got an 1100 Bobier(845 Bobier sibbed). Bobier sibbed the 723 Bobier this year. Is there an advantage to sibbing?
Lets say I've got two 1370 Rose seeds. Do you think it's better to self both of them, and see which performes best, or sibb them?
I'm glad you opened this discussion Owen.

10/24/2005 12:55:28 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Correction: "because the 935 WAS mostly "selfed"..."

10/24/2005 12:57:04 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Sibbing is an interesting topic because, as we know, two seeds
from the same pumpkin are NOT the same genetically. They
should be very similar, however. My own gut feel is that the
result of a self and a sib are very similar, so much so that
it would be splitting hairs (pad pun avoided) to tell them
apart. (Just my opinion...)

10/24/2005 1:00:00 PM

Itzetown City

Owen, in my books the 846 Calai is 801,5 Stelts x 935 Lloyd 97? Right?

10/24/2005 4:20:56 PM

Maine

846 is 801.5 x 876.5 Lloyd I think

10/24/2005 4:35:19 PM

Leamington, Ont.

I guess the 1056.5 Ruff would be ripe for a good cross.

10/24/2005 7:01:16 PM

Cincinnati,OH

The 846 Calai is 801.5 Stelts x 876.5 Lloyd
Joe Ailts wrote a 'very' interesting article 5 years ago. It explains the value of selfing and virtually predicts the lineage of the last 2 world records.
http://www.bigpumpkins.com/ViewArticle.asp?id=97
pay Close attention to paragraph 3 and then look at the lineage of 1469 Checkon and the 1442 Eaton.

10/24/2005 7:21:05 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Cliff, thanks for putting some excitement into my patch next year...I have both the 891 Tanner and the 981 Zunino seeds in my pouch...I guess if I keep payin attention I just might learn a thing or two...what a great caldron of info on this sight...and I thought that I was such a nu-B that I didn't have any ultra top notch seeds...??? live and learn...!!! Peace Wayne

10/24/2005 10:16:20 PM

Pumpkintown, SC

Cliff, I understand your opinion, but let me say this(another way to look at selfing versus sibbing).
Selfing is your "best bet" for replicating the pumpkin(genotype/phenotype) you selfed.
Sibbing is your "best bet" for replicating the genotype/phenotype of the seed that produced the pumpkin you sibbed.
Make sense?
Ok, here's another more visual way to look at it... Say you have 2 869.5s. Since so many 869.5s have been grown, you have a pretty good idea what your 2 seeds will produce. However, with 2 seeds being grown, one might end up looking like the 1125 Frantz or 953 Langevin and one might look like the 573 Stucker or the 984 Miller. Selfing will be your best bet to carry on the specific characteristic of the actual pumpkin you selfed. Sibbing will give you more variation of progeny just like the 869.5 has in its own progeny. Does that help? Or is that more muddy? <:^)> BF

10/24/2005 11:49:07 PM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

Very good explanation Snake Oil.
So an even better way of getting closer to the original seed, would be to sibb it the first year, then cross it with another seed from the same pumpkin the next, and maybe do that again?
ex.
yr.1: 723 X 723(sibbed)
yr.2: 723 sibbed X 723
yr.3: (723 sibbed X 723) X 723
That could be done if you had 4 seeds from the same pumpkin.
If you did have 4 723 Bobier seeds(dream on), would this be the way to go, or would it be better to self each one, and then plant seeds from the one with the best overall characteristics?
I'm also wondering if continually selfing a color seed, will result in it reverting back to less color, if it has ,for instance, 935 Lyoyd in it's background?
Take the 603 Muller for instance. It is a selfed 845 Nesbitt, that had great color. The 603 carries on this great color. If you keep selfing it, do you think the great color will be stabilized, or will it revert back to less colorful fruit?

10/25/2005 12:13:21 AM

Mill Creek West by god Virginia

hello owen: somehow i feel as if i kept ya up late doing all this research and i want to say thank you for ansering alot of selfed questions,this makes me feel good about my selfed seeds this year i hope i can do em justice anyway ill ask this and then stand back and whatch others opinions? i selfed these seed this year 801.5, 1097, 842eaton, 1233 checkon, so should i turn around this year coming and say self them again or do you think i should sibb em ,i mean with sibbing them (does this means leaving more than one fruit on the plant) and therefore means smaller fruit in 06? or am i thinking wrong by sibbing in 06 should i plant two plants from same seed and then cross em im just thinking out loud with questions ive been asked and im sure alot of new growers may be wondering also about selfing and sibbing thanks again owen burrhead

10/25/2005 12:47:19 AM

Pumpkintown, SC

We need to know what you are trying to accomplish before we can suggest which road to take, BF

10/25/2005 1:36:34 AM

Knopp, Germany

Hi Keith, sibbing means to have 2 plants growing from the same seeds and then taking pollen from one of the plants and pollinating one on the other plant.

Back to your question. I am not sure what would be best, but I can tell you that you should consider what it is you are looking for. Did your 801.5 self turn out to be a nice orange pumpkin? If so, and you would like to add some genes to it that "might" help produce a pumpkin that is nice orange and goes heavy, then you could consider one of your selfed seeds that went heavy, and has that tendency in its backgound.

I am not an expert, I really enjoy looking at the historical data though to see if I can predict what future crosses might potentially do.

I am sure that Snakes answer has a lot of merit, and Cliff is also doing what he feels is the right way to go. What is the answer? Beats me. back in the old days they just let the bees do their thing, no one knows for sure what the 609 Laemmle's heritage is, and it is the pollinator of the famous 567.5 Mombert 92 or for that matter the 562 Rose 95 the pollinator of the famous 801.5 Stelts 97.

Best of luck though, I think soemtimes that is the unknown factor ... luck!

10/25/2005 1:45:55 AM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Ah, a good discussion!

Snake Oil and others, I see your points on sibbing. I guess it also depends a lot on the variation present in the original seed stock... the more variation present in the original seed stock, the more that sibbing would be <i> different </i> than selfing.

It's hard to know, one way or the other. I suppose not many sibs are done because it's hard enough picking out the certain number of plants you can grow... but if you have the desire, I suppose sibbing could be slightly higher in regard than selfing. I know for me, having the time to take care of only so many plants, means that I wouldn't be selfing.

On the topic of "how many generations"... as I grew the 891 Tanner this year, the plant was solid but just slow. By the
end of the year, the plant was as big as any,... but it always seemed to be taking it's time. The fruit color was an extremely light orange, not what we expected from the original 846... Is this the recessives showing through? Maybe.

10/25/2005 10:57:24 AM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Another error in my post above: "having the time to take care of only so many plants means that I wouldn't be SIBBING."

As to the 609 Laemmle's genes... the story goes that Helmut saved the seeds from the largest pumpkin each year and continued with those. Nobody knows where he got the first seed. But if there was no other similar pollen floating around, (a big IF) then you'd have to assume that significant inbreeding (a lot of selfing and sibbing, whether by bees or not) was going on.

10/25/2005 11:05:03 AM

Aloha, Oregon

Seed Backrounds are amazing

10/25/2005 11:17:51 AM

Pumpkintown, SC

Before we continue(and I'm sorry if this is a little off topic), I need to point out to the newbies and crusty oldies alike, remember, just because a seed is "open-pollinated" doesn't mean it is any less likely to produce a big beautiful pumpkin. They are just as likely. Well over half the crosses "we" make are done Willie Nillie(apologies to Will Neily), meaning without a positive genetic strategy...and half of the crosses made with "a" strategy are ones without merit(that is, if creating the next monster is the goal).
My point is, just because a cross may be unknown(open-pollinated) makes it no less capable a cross than one you may have planned for a year/years. It simply makes it; 1) unknown(cross); 2) less consistant with its progeny's characteristics(assuming, though not always the case, pollination occured with multiple genetic pollen providers) and 3) a little harder to plot out optimum future crosses. Ok, I'm done. Back to the thread...

10/25/2005 12:40:03 PM

Knopp, Germany

Ah Snake, good point, but, dang I hate them buts, since the 562 Rose 95, when was the last time a open pollinated seed has had such an impact? Yeah, I know, if more open pollinated were planted we might be able to better judge your theory, but they are not, and that is a fact we must consider.

Another question, I am to tired to do research tonight, but what potentially great seeds have the "hybrid vigor" tendencies and similar background of the 845 and 723? Those are the seeds I want.

Where the hell is Joe Ailts, I would love to hear his 1.5 cents.

owen

10/25/2005 1:03:22 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Years ago all Giants were open pollinated. If a grower saw a fruit he wanted to cross into his line, he planted one in a corner hill somewhere. If he liked what he saw from the Bees work, he'd keep growing the result. If he didn't, he'd go back to his pre-entry seed stocks.

We can't be too hard on open fruit since ALL AGs have OPs in their lineage somewhere.

But self/sibb pollinations were the name of the game unless you had a neighbor who grew a different stock.

10/25/2005 4:01:45 PM

Long Island,New York

Well, I'm not one to disagree with anyone but...............I find that open pollinated comment very misleading.... the main reason NOT to grow an open pollinated giant is that it might be pollinated by a non-giant.Nothing worse than growing an open pollinated seed to find its not going to give you an Atlantic Giant. All that work can be lost to a 50 lb ugly that was pollinated by someone's hubbard somewhere out of the growers site or knowledge. You just don't know what an open pollinated seed will produce. There are too many known crosses to waste time with an open one.

10/25/2005 4:26:48 PM

Deer Park WA

Looking for a nice orange pumpkin seed that has been selfed/sibbed for a while to cross into my 611.4* that came down the line from the 895* Hester. I have sibbed and selfed the offspring for the past three seasons so I believe it has been selfed and sibbed for like 6 generations total (dont have the AGGC access to know for sure). Hoping to get some hybrid vigor going...

Gerry

10/25/2005 4:40:43 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Speaking of the 895 Hester, it's getting hard to find a true green squash to grow that ISN'T the 895 Hester - selfed several times. A lot of growers grow only one true green squash (myself included). Well, last year my intention was to have two true green squash plants, but one came out white and then turned orange...

10/25/2005 4:56:25 PM

Utah

I grew a 891 Tanner this year too. 735 Pukos x self

The 891 had a decent medium orange color. and it had that typical 735 shape ... especially when it was smaller.

The 735 Pukos had a medium color not dark orange color like one would think it should have gotten being a 846 x self.

The fruit I got of my 891 this year - did not have the typical 735 Pukos shape and it had very little color....ie ...it was ugly and white for the most part... Yet I know of a few other growers who did grow the 891 and they got a more typical 735 shape and color.
So who know's what is going on ? In mine and Cliff's case my 891 certainly didn't live up to our expectations even though it was a x self for three generations.

DITTO to what Glenn said... that's what I was thinking as well. I peeked over my back fence some time in Sept ... I saw a couple of banana squash in my neighbors garden. I did not know that he was growing them.

10/25/2005 5:05:24 PM

Pumpkintown, SC

Good point G. Not everyone's surrounding habitat can be monitored.
"Open pollinated among AGs only"...

10/25/2005 6:12:27 PM

Western NY

Something to think about concerning sibbed seeds:

of 22 offspring over 800# from a sibbed seed [currently listed on aggc] FIFTEEN of them are from either the 895* Hester, 675* Hester, or 552* Sherwood.

The biggest was the 1086* Carlson-Peterson.

Overall, not a very good track record for sibbed seeds, but a great track record for squash.

10/25/2005 6:20:57 PM

The Bowery

shiznit you mentioned the 1056 Ruff was ripe for a good cross. Not sure if you have aggc access but I did a 1056 Ruff X 436 Kaczenski (765.4 Kaczenski). My 436 is a 3rd generation self cross. I am now up to 6 generations of selfing on this particular line. I started the selfing in 1998. This line of seed I can trace back to 1988 when I first got a pack of Dills. Through the early years there were 3 seasons of open pollination's then followed with 2 seasons of self crossing then some inbred crossings up until 1998 when I started the string of 6 self cross seasons. Throughout the years I grew all my own seeds. Honestly, I only started acquiring seeds from other growers in 2000.

The 765.4 I grew in 2003 really had me interested to see how it was going to do. Had a real bad 2004 season with mildew but reached 729.5. The 729.5 was estimated at 600 pounds. So it went nice and heavy. I grew the 765.4 again this season and pretty much the same results for over the chart. Estimated at 300 and went 405. Maybe this heavy trait could be possible due to bringing two isolated lines together? One would like to think so but it maybe just by chance, coincidence or already in place by a cross made years before....

For all you guys / gals interested maybe these sound tempting.
398 Kaczenski 500 Kaczenski X 898 Knauss 500 Katz is a 5th generation self
258 Kaczenski 436 Kaczenski X 1056 Ruff Opposite cross of the 765.4, 436 is a 3rd gen self
252 Kaczenski 476.5 Kaczenski X 1056 Ruff 476.5 Katz is a 1996 seed
183 Kaczenski 500 Kaczenski X 611* Stellfplug Nothing like bringing Dill and Gancarz back together again. Just praying there are seeds in it....

art

10/25/2005 9:12:52 PM

Leamington, Ont.

Art, I did notice that you were in the 1st gen for the 1056.5 on aggc, but I didn't look into it until now. Very cool! Now thats a pure line!

E-mail on it's way
Savio

10/25/2005 9:54:54 PM

No Place Special

I do believe Bob Ruff Selfed the 1056.5 at some point also.

10/25/2005 10:46:51 PM

Pumpkintown, SC

The track record that I find most interesting Andy, is the "why" so many sibbs have been done on those particular seeds. I know why...as I'm sure a lot of other growers do. But since I didn't play a part in any of those particular sibbs, it wouldn't be my place to put words in their mouths. I'll just say I think it was/is smart and I agree with their "line" of thinking! Now, more of us just need to "line" some other specific "pumpkin" seeds up and follow suit. Just my thoughts...BF

10/25/2005 11:06:39 PM

Covington, WA

I grew the 1074 Calai, same cros as 846 Calai this past season and it produced two very nice looking fruit, a 418 and 472. The pollen parent for both fruit was the 1033 Emmons 04, which as stated earlier is the 846 Calai X self. Unfortunately neither fruit made the magic 500 lb. cutoff for the AGGC database. Both are intact still and it will probably be a few weeks before I get any seeds from them, but it will be interesting to see if they produce well. Since the fruit on the 1033 I grew a cream color I wonder what affect it will have on the next generations color. It is a different twist on inbreeding that I wanted to try just because I could.

10/26/2005 12:14:32 AM

Mill Creek West by god Virginia

thanks owen and everybody for this topic very interesting owen: my 801.5 was very orange and had decent ribbing nice shape also it also went about 47 lbs heavy so i like its potential,this evening i received a 1370 rose and also i got some 1370x723 seed im thinking of crossing them into the 801 am i crazy or what and i also think i just might regrow the 541-(801.5) and try crossing it with itself again i guess its all just a crap shoot anyway it goes im going for heavy orange keith

10/26/2005 12:19:26 AM

Mill Creek West by god Virginia

ps not to confuse anyone my 801.5 went 541pounds for me so i guess i call it the 541 barrett 05 witch is 801.5 stelts xself

10/26/2005 12:23:26 AM

Knopp, Germany

No, I don't think you are crazy at all Keith. Your 541 x 1370 Rose plans are right on in my book. The 1370 has produced very nice orange, and typically heavy pumpkins. The 801.5 Stelts genes are some of the best around for great color. You want heavy orange, and I think that you have a good chance at it with that cross.

10/26/2005 2:11:50 AM