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Eastern Pennsylvania

Let's say you have a plant, which you self pollinate, and set 2 fruit on the same plant (both fruit were selfed). You grow both punks to maturity, and one fruit ends up 30% heavier than the other. This could be due to vine position or any number of factors.

My question is, if all of the seeds are essentially different, even within the same pumpkin, are the seeds from the larger fruit any better than the smaller one, assuming mature seeds.

Any opinions? I say yes. Or has this subject already been beaten to death?

11/3/2005 2:42:21 PM

Western NY

i don't think the subject has been beaten to death at all.

i'd love to hear from people smarter than me on this, but my first reaction is to say they have equal genetic potential.

11/3/2005 2:51:17 PM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

Each fruit is different. So that plants potential to throw heavy or light fruit also has to be an unknown variable. Although certain seeds increase the probability of % of fruit heavy to the charts. As Andy stated our questions will probably never be fully answered.

11/3/2005 4:00:49 PM

Netherlands

The fact that one seed produces two pumpkins of different weight proves that the size of the pumpkin from which the seed was taken is not of importance.

The genes of the seeds in the pumpkin being grown will not change if the pumpkin gets bigger or not. The genes in both of the pumpkins will be just as equal as those of human siblings.

It is even possible that the smaller of the two pumpkins might have a better mix of the same genes as her sister but due to vine position, etc turned out smaller.

Genes can improve from generation to generation. This is the reason why pumpkins get bigger each year.

The 21 Beachy grew a 800 lb + pumpkin.

11/3/2005 4:01:00 PM

Cincinnati,OH

I am assuming by weighing 30% heavier you don't mean 1 weighed 30% heavier than the charts estimate and the other did not.
Most would plant the seed from the bigger one just because its bigger.
I think the best example of 2 pumpkins from the same plant would be the 1230 and 1016 Daletas. Same plant, same cross. Both have done quite well. I never compared progeny from both until now. Top 5 from each as of last year.
The 1016 Daletas has grown, 1225,1210,1121,1101,1008
The 1230 Daletas has grown, 1029,1028,1027,1009,981

11/3/2005 4:28:13 PM

Syracuse, NY

i would have to say that that is just a TAD bit interesting.
i wonder which one would go faster if they rolled down a hill.
perhaps if there is another scenario of same plant/same cross/how did they do, the results could be similar!
whatever made one fruit bigger than the other?
may carry on in the offspring? now, if only it were
spring 2006 right now............eric

11/3/2005 4:38:04 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Boy, oh boy, oh boy, oh boy...the more I read the more confused I get....sure is fun though...Peace Wayne

11/3/2005 10:02:09 PM

Hudsonville, Michigan (michiganpumpkins@sbcglobal.net)

My feeling is that there are more genes in a seed than get expressed. And as you self a seed, you are more likely to narrow down the traits that are expressed. If you are saying one fruit was 30% heavier than the other, then I'd plant whichever one had better shape/color. If you are saying one fruit was 30% heavy to charts, and the other was even, then I'd plant the heavy one every time, with the idea/hope that selfing has reinforced those traits and would over time become more reliably expressed...
Here's a question, if both are selfed, and with one you used just one male flower to pollinate, and with the other you used, say, four males, would the one male offspring tend to show less variability in the traits expessed? i.e. how much do pollen grains vary from plant-to-plant / flower-to-flower?
Frank

11/4/2005 7:18:58 AM

Eastern Pennsylvania

I think that since each pollen grain is completely random anyways then it wouldn't matter how many flowers you use. each grain is a unique jumble of the plant's genetic material, which is not dependant on the flower it came from.

11/4/2005 11:32:35 AM

Eastern Pennsylvania

I did mean actual 30% heavier BTW, not 30% over the charts. But I don't think it would matter anyways. All the same I guess I would be inclined to plant the heavier one.

11/4/2005 11:36:15 AM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

If I had the 1016 and the 1230 Delatas, I'd lean towards the 1016, based on performance so far. Good question though.

11/4/2005 12:20:48 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

That is a very good and important point, every pollen grain
is different from the other. And in fact, each female half
of a seed within a pumpkin are also different. Similar but
different. Every seed that comes out of a particular pumpkin
is different (similar, but different).

I've long suggested that if someone has the space and
inclination, they could pick 12 to 15 seeds at random from
any pumpkin and plant them all, and try to treat all plants
the same.... doing this, one could come up with a pretty
accurate description of the distribution of that particular
seed stock. A bell curve. (I hate bell curves for people,
but for pumpkins, it's fine.)

Statistical theory says that about 12 - 15 seeds from a huge
population, will accurately describe the population, within
a 95% accuracy. The problem is in treating them all the
same, and the effort involved.

But by doing this, we might learn HOW MUCH more homogeneous
self'ed fruits are, vs. random crosses.

But, it's complicated. I don't think there is a "weight
gene"... there are genes for all sorts of things, and all
sorts of things that contribute to weight, and I'd bet that
we're talking about thousands of genes that contribute in
some form..........

11/4/2005 1:25:23 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

It makes you think that Helmut Laemelle had it right when he
just saved the seeds from the biggest pumpkin each year! ;-)

And, whether by intention or happenstance, that's exactly
what we're doing.

11/4/2005 1:29:04 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Ah, I shouldn't have gotten started... I should clarify.....

As a whole, as a world-wide movement to advance the gene
pool for giant pumpkins, that's what we're doing. On the
individual level, however, certain genetic strategies are
being used with some success.

11/4/2005 1:35:20 PM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

I've wondered if the genetic differences, between different seeds from the same pumpkin, are equally due to the female contribution, as to the male's? For instance, if there was less variation on the female's side, we could look at the fruit grown, and deduce better what the characteristics if the progeny would be(based on the characteristics of the fruit).
Do certain characteristics seem to carry through more on the male's or female's side? Such as color, wall thickness, etc.

11/4/2005 1:49:40 PM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

An example of what got me thinking of the above post is:
I've got both the 851.5 Companion(1016 Delatas X 810 Dill) and the 710.5 Companion(810 Dill X 1016 Delatas). Assuming they are crosses from the two same plants, which I don't know. The 710.5 had great color from the pic I saw. I'm wondering which seeds would have the tend to produce pumpkins with darker color. Would the good color gene be more stablized on the mother's side? I'm wondering if the pollen from that 810 Dill plant would tend to pass on great color as well, or if it would be more variable, like the fairly large color range of pumpkins the 810 has produced?

11/4/2005 1:58:10 PM

Eastern Pennsylvania

Yes, I'm with you Cliff. But I want to point out that under ANSI guidelines, for a population size of 500 seeds for instance, the relevant sample size would have to be 50 seeds.

I don't think any of us have the nerve to risk an entire season growing, even at 15 plants, of the same stock only to find that the seed is only a moderate producer.

The best thing to do is probably just keep giving them out for other growers to do the dirty work for you.

11/4/2005 2:07:02 PM

Ri

An addition to the 1016/1230 comparison. The 1230 and 1016 is a rare example of two fruit from the same pumpkin and same cross. When comparing weights, the 1016 has had the better run. But did the 1230 have an equal amount of opportunities. The 1016 got hot and therefore got in the ground more often. peter

11/4/2005 3:18:33 PM

Long Beach, CA

My understanding of this is that the genetic makeup of each seed is decided at pollination time. Every seed recieves two complementary sets of randomly arranged chromosomes, one from the parent plant and one from the pollinator. The pumpkin is only a container for these seeds, so its size relative to other pumpkins on the same plant shouldn't affect the seeds...

Oliver

11/4/2005 10:24:24 PM

Long Beach, CA

Just out of curiosity, does anybody know how many chromosomes c. maxima has?

11/4/2005 10:25:32 PM

Napa Valley, CA

Another example of two fruit from the same pumpkin and same cross are the 867 and 774 Mombert 2000 (801.5 Stelts x 567.5 Mombert).
A number of growers planted the 867 but very few of the 774's were grown (Chris Michalec and I are the only ones that I know of that grew it).
All other things being equal, I think that most growers will grow the larger of the two. Hey, if its bigger.....it must be better......right ?? ......well that may not always be the case but when it comes time to plant the seed, it sure does seem logical.

Neither the 867 or the 774 grew large pumpkins by todays standards but both threw some of the most beautiful orange pumpkins that I have ever seen.
George

11/5/2005 12:52:31 AM

Iowa

Interesting discussion. From what I know about genetics through farming, it takes a long time to get pure genetics. For instance, all corn(and I know corn and pumpkins may be different) that farmers planted used to be open pollinated. Then, seed companies started to make inbred lines and crossed them together. And wow, what a deifference it made in yeild! That was true hybrid vigor. But the best thing was that after selfing each line for 7 to 8 generations they had pure enough lines that when they crossed them the results were a consistent hybrid each time they were crossed. But with AG's we are crossing something that has been crossed so many times that it is almost impossible to get a consistant cross. Yes, we do get some crosses that are definately better, but we can make the same cross many more times and not get as good of results. But I would say slowly, with controled crossed the gene pool is getting better and more consistant. So, even when you self, you can still end up with different traits for numerous seeds out of one pumpkin. I would have to say that two selfed pumpkins on one plant would probably throw more pumpkins that were the same than a selfed pumpkin from a different plant from the same seed. Bigger is not always better, but every cross must be proven.

11/6/2005 8:48:53 AM

Eastern Pennsylvania

Oliver, C. maxima has 20 chromosomes.

-Jim

11/6/2005 9:32:40 PM

Long Beach, CA

Thanks Jim

Oliver

11/7/2005 5:49:39 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Back to the statistics... for a population of 500 and
confidence of 95% (more than we need) I thought the number
was 12 to 15. Looks like I'll need to get out my textbook...

11/8/2005 11:36:18 AM

Eastern Pennsylvania

Well this gets a little hairy because when you get into significance there are two factors to take into account 1) confidence interval and 2) confidence level.

I was just giving that example because I work in an analytical laboratory where we use the ANSI standards (american national standards institute) so we don't have to think about it, just refer to a chart.

I'm not saying that the results from 15 plants wouldn't be enough to compel me to plant a seed. When you don't have all the data, you take what you can get!

-Jim

11/8/2005 2:36:09 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Yes, I started going through my statistics book today and
found more questions than answers. And I don't think we're
going to get this experiment going anytime soon. Interesting
to think about though... and it does help to describe the
theoretical differences between inbred lines and outbred
lines...

11/8/2005 5:42:06 PM

White Bear Lake, Minnesota

cliffwarren
I would guess that if you could get 12 to 15 seeds from a 1358 Checkon,

11/8/2005 11:21:12 PM

White Bear Lake, Minnesota

OOPs I think your experiment would have a chance.

11/8/2005 11:23:37 PM