From

Location

Message

Date Posted

Ray, North Dakota

If someone were to start with new seed from say Gurneys and keep using seed from the fruits produced, how many years would it take to get a huge fruit? I know everyone is using the same genetics and cross breeding them, but someone had to start with store boughten seed somewhere right?

11/16/2005 5:53:35 PM

Syracuse, NY

i believe Howard Dill had to do many, many years of crossing between the plants from seeds from the biggest pumpkins in order to accomplish his goal. if someone said
15 to 20 years i would not be surprised...and even then,
it has taken many years of AG GROWERS' efforts to
somehow get the AG to where it is today.
guess i'd better read "The Pumpkin King" again....eric

11/16/2005 6:49:52 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

This might serve as the most definitive short explaination on the www.

Copied (without permission) from Ray Waterman's website:

Giant Pumpkin Growing first attained international acclaim at the turn of twentieth century when the late William Warnock of Goderich, Ontario, Canada, sent a 400 pound specimen to the Paris World's Fair in 1900. This first ever 400 pounder was awarded a special bronze medal and diploma from the French government. Mr. Warnock's previous record was 365 pounds in 1893. Then, to clinch his world championship, Warnock exhibited a 403 pounder in 1903 at the St. Louis World's Fair.

The record existed until 1976 when Bob Ford of Coatesville, Pennsylvania, USA exhibited a 451 pound specimen at the U.S. Pumpkin Contest in Churchville, PA. Yearly International Competition was revived again in 1979 when Canadian Howard Dill of Windsor, Nova Scotia won his first of four consecutive international pumpkinship titles at the Cornell Contest in Pennsylvania. Mr. Dill's first world record of 459 pounds came in 1980 which he supassed in 1981 by harvesting a 493.5 pound pumpkin.

Go to the URL for the rest of the story.

http://www.backyardgardener.com/wcgp/wpc/wpc_history.html

11/16/2005 9:54:39 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

So regardless how much of the "Goderich Giant" was in Howard Dill's early seed stock, it took from 1900 (400 lbs) until 2005 (1469 lbs) to gain 1069 lbs.

So 1069 lbs/105 years = 10.18 lbs per year.

11/16/2005 9:58:00 PM

Ray, North Dakota

Well put people, I appreciate the talk.

11/17/2005 8:58:12 AM

Eastern Pennsylvania

Another thing to note, looking only since 1980 the record has increased from 459lbs to 1469lbs, or 1010lbs total in just 25 years. That's 40.4lbs per year.

So once Howard had narrowed the genetic field, it became easier. I believe it will continue to get easier as we carefully analyze the best seed stocks from each year.

Not that we should forget the other factors such as advancements in soil prep and growing techniques. -Jim

11/17/2005 12:21:09 PM

Sioux Falls, SD garyboer@dakotalink.com

. . .another advantage is that there are hundreds of people working together and sharing both seeds and expertise

11/17/2005 2:26:37 PM

Long Island,New York

I'm not so sure Howard narrowed the genetic field so much....there's so much more Gancarz in these than you will ever know...and stuff from Circleville. Don't forget Gancarz was capturing WR's multiple times during the 80's.....thats New Jersey stuff....and wasn't Lemele from New jersey? ..geez that 1992 seed is VERY common in our gene pool....now, what was the name of that seed again ??????

11/17/2005 4:42:10 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Laemmle, Wright, Gancarz, Fulp, Ford....all were growing before Howard introduced his more refined & patented Atlantic Giant. Howard brought us a more consistent color producer. I agree with Glenn that we're probably growing seeds today that are less than 30% Dill.

11/17/2005 5:12:44 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

To all, great info...Jim, I like the updated growth curve a lot better...is it possible to give it to us for the last 20, 15, 10,...etc years? Thanks again...I love history!!! Peace Wayne

11/17/2005 9:46:07 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

G, Are you talking about the 567.5 Mombert '92? (616 Holland x 609 Laemmle '89) The 616 Holland was Dill. But Helmet was an island. His stuff would have been New Jersey. The problem with the Gancarz line was how they grew in the field.

I interviewed Ed Gancarz this spring. During the '70s & '80s he used to drive to Circleville & various points in PA buying large pumpkins that he liked. He'd plant the seeds & let the bees open pollinate his fields. So whatever changes were imparted in the Gancarz line (while certainly not Dill) prior to '85 are impossible to trace accurately today.

11/18/2005 7:12:46 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Remember that Alan told us his 579.5 was from Dill seed grown by Scott Cully.

11/18/2005 7:15:07 AM

Long Island,New York

Also keep in mind that the x self and "controlled" crosses back in the olden days were not really "controlled". Back then they swabbed the pollen on the female with the chosen males but the standard did not include covering before and after much less the males. Some have even told me the method back then was to put three-four chosen males down next to the females and go off to work...leaving the bees to do the deed.....thats controlled circa 1988 very often.

11/18/2005 7:23:49 AM

Ray, North Dakota

What about getting seed from a successful producer and also buying seed from Howard Dill? He has seed from some very large specimens. Crossing the two should yield good results?

11/18/2005 9:53:28 AM

Indiana

Scott Cully himself claims the 579.5 was grown from a Gancarz seed.

Tom

11/18/2005 10:04:34 AM

Eastern Pennsylvania

I'm sorry, this is all new to me. I thought Laemmle, Wright, Gancarz, Fulp, Ford all started with seed that in some way originated from the Dill line. Is this not correct? They are all called atlantic giant, right? I don't know how to get at this kind of info.

Wayne, if I get a sec I'll whip up a spreadsheet.. but something might already be available out there. -Jim

11/18/2005 11:57:02 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Tom, From a post by Alan answering a question by Marc Sawtelle:


Alan N.
New York    Marc,
My 579 was grown from the 1985 WPC winner Scott Cully (515.4lbs.).....which in turn was grown from a 400+ Howard Dill seed. The 579 is definitely a Dill and not related to Gancarz or Wright

On the other hand...my 589 from '89 is Gancarz all the way....which happens to be the great,great,great,great,great grandmother of the 723 and 845 Bobier. All these seeds go back to the 390 Gancarz in 1984....which in turn was from the seed stock Gancarz used during the 70's into mid 80's.

Here's where I think a lot of it began. There were 3 big names who attended a weigh-off in 1976 called Cornell's in PA ...these people were Howard Dill, Ed Gancarz, and Harold Fulp Jr. I understand all 3 of these growers were in the high 200 pound range. BUT....the winner that day weighed in at 451 pounds...and the world saw it's first 400 pound pumpkin in 73 years. The world record that had stood since 1903 had been broken (Imagine Steve Daletas holding the record until the year 2076). The grower was Bob Ford from PA....I never heard anything else from this grower.

Okay...this is what I think happened. Howard was really trying to develop the "ORANGE" in these fruits...with the simple goal that the general public wouldn't buy into these giant pumpkins if they were green, pink, white...ect....BASICALLY NOT ORANGE. I'm guessing the 451 wasn't very orange in color and probably looked more like a squash than pumpkin. The 451 doesn't get credit for breaking the 403 in the record books....Howard is credited with breaking it in '79 at 438.5 pounds. Howard would then go on to break the all time record in 1980 at 459 pounds.....at the same weigh-off the 451 was weighed 4 years earlier. I know Ed believes the 451 broke the '03 record for PUMPKIN that day....and I'm guessing Howard would believe it to be a SQUASH record....the 451 WAS A REAL FRUIT

4/2/2004 7:53:39 AM

11/18/2005 9:38:19 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Here is the link to Alan's summary. It's a very good read & prompted me to hook up with ed Ford. He granted me an interview that we put in our newsletter this summer. He even sent me seeds from the 451 Ford '76 but I haven't tried to germinate them yet.

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/MsgBoard/ViewThread.asp?b=3&p=69462

For the record, I have also talked with Howard Fulp. The 513 Fulp 77* SQ was not grown from the 451 Ford but rather a bizarre crossing of fruit that included a Banana Squash that Fulp developed himself. The black & white phtot of the 451 that Ed Ford sent me shows what is likely a mottled orange fruit probably similar in appearance to an 898 Knauss progeny today. Ford claims the 451 was an orange Pumpkin at any rate & this is what the record books say as well.

11/18/2005 10:47:41 PM