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Connecticut

I have an interesting question, which one of these seeds is most closely related to the 1016 Daletas?

A.) 1230 Daletas- same cross, and same female plant

B.) 841 Dill- (1016 Daletas X sibb) involves the actual 1016

Just curious what people think about this.

Thanks:-)

11/17/2005 4:52:50 PM

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

B has more inbreeding so I say that one.
Just guessin.Hope someone can say for sure.

11/17/2005 8:18:22 PM

Abbotsford, B.C

How can you compare? Basically the 1016 and the 1230 in relation to each other are "brothers", while the 841 Dill is the 1016's "son" so to speak. Or daughter, whichever you prefer. (It doesn't really matter with plants, it's just progeny, because the progeny plant can produce both male and female flowers). But you know, because of the fact that th 841 comes right from the 1016, it might just have more 1016 characteristics. Very interesting.

Cameron

11/17/2005 8:56:34 PM

Mastic Beach, New York

i think the 1230 and 1016 are sisters?

11/17/2005 9:50:47 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Now, now, DTM ya know what they saying about assuming, makes an ass of u and me. Have read too many times about seeds from the same fruit producing differently...Identical twin girls have kids...are they the same...even if they had the same father...sorta sick...they would not be the same. Genetics offers too many variables. Just a nu-B's 2cents. Peace Wayne

11/17/2005 10:18:04 PM

Eastern Pennsylvania

There's no way the 1016 and 1230 could receive the exact same genes. The chances are better of winning mega-millions or the powerball lotto... ten times in a row.
-Jim

11/18/2005 9:26:38 AM

Indiana

regardless of what anyone on here says...until someone proves that the genetics are different between fruit on the same plant with crosses between the same plants, the 1230 is identical to the 1016. Meaning their seeds have the exact same potential. Certain externalities have caused the 1016 to be much hotter than the 1230, but there is no way in my book.....claiming one is better than the other is nothing short of assuming the parents are different.

Tom

11/18/2005 10:07:40 AM

Western NY

I'd have to agree with Tom.

for as much as we even consider remake crosses very similar, then the 1230/1016 should be nearly identical. i would say a sibbed 1016 mixes things up a tad more, and will still be a great seed.

Jim is right about them not getting the same genes, but then at the same time every seed in the same pumpkin will also have a different set of genes. we're talking the difference between 99.9 and 99.99 percent here i would imagine when it comes to nitpicking it that far.

11/18/2005 11:51:25 AM

Eastern Pennsylvania

Just for clarification, the 1016 and 1230 wern't selfed on the same plant were they? No one has grown two fruits over 1000lbs on the same plant, ever, right? That wouldn't change my argument, but it would soften me up a bit.

11/18/2005 12:20:23 PM

Western NY

the 1064 and 1097 momberts were also grown on the same plant. that's the only other dual 1000+ from a single plant that i can think of.

11/18/2005 1:23:11 PM

Sioux Falls, SD garyboer@dakotalink.com

wow!
. . .how much bigger would you guess the 1230 could have been if 1016 culled early (if no blowup)?

11/18/2005 1:27:13 PM

Pumpkintown, SC

Same plant Orangeneck.
Tom, is it your opinion that Cucurbit maxima genetic differentiation of fruit from the same plant, has not been proven? BF

11/18/2005 1:46:56 PM

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

Interesting to see that so far people seem to regard 1230 and 1016 as sibbs.

11/18/2005 1:49:18 PM

Eastern Pennsylvania

Okay then if both fruits were selfed, then the 1230 is definately closer than the 841 is to the 1016. In fact, it seems to me that although each seed is unique within a fruit... the 1230 is essentially the same as the 1016. Identical twins but unequal due to vine position. We've talked about this before. Forgive me, I do know some science but not so much history. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

11/18/2005 2:20:59 PM

San Diego

they were on the same plant but not selfed, they were both crossed with an 846 calai so they have the same cross.

11/18/2005 2:53:05 PM

Long Island,New York

Well, I try to not compare plants to animals but I have two kids by my wife. Same female, same male. Each child is uniquely different yet you can tell they are sisters. Same male "pollen" gene pool, same female....just a different structuring of those genes.

11/18/2005 3:39:32 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

But, this is a key point... even using your human analogy
above, each of your "pollen" is different from every other,
and each of your wife's eggs are different from every other.
They are probably similar, but each is unique. That is, it's
not a unique structuring of the genes, but rather each portion
was unique to begin with.

If we're talking chromosomes, and each of your 46 chromosomes
are split, as well as the wife's... each of you contribute
23. But which 23?

If they split randomly, then you offer 2^23 possible
combinations to your wife, who in turn provides an idential
number of combinations. Combined, it works out to about 70 trillion
possible combinations.

I don't know how correct or incorrect the above is, but I
think it's on the right track.

I'll try hard to avoid an analogy with selfing..........

11/18/2005 6:13:39 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Having said that, the "unique, but probably similar" is
important. If you are 6'10 and your wife is 6'6, then it's
very likely that you'll have tall children.

11/18/2005 6:31:06 PM

Cincinnati,OH

The only way 2 pumpkins could be identical twins would be if 1 pumpkin split into 2 pumpkins after pollination.
I would consider the 1016 & 1230 fraternal twins since they were 2 different pumpkins on the same plant pollinated by the same father.

11/18/2005 7:21:24 PM

Picton,ON (j.vincent@xplornet.ca)

I would agree with Tom Beachy here. The exception here is that all seeds within a giving pumpkin are inherently different genetically. That’s why we don't see repeated world records by the same female parent. That being said the “potential” of each 1016 and 1230 seed are theoretically identical. It’s a roll of the dice!
Most of the seeds I grew this year (including the 1016) have grown over 1000 lbs. Yet my largest this year was 705.5 (out of the 1016). Did I just get a dud? No I just don’t have the experience yet to grow a 1000 lber. Is the genetic potential still there in my 705.5? absolutely! Just ask Tom about the 21 Beachy.

11/18/2005 8:55:29 PM

Napa Valley, CA

493 van kooten '02 = 1230 x 1016

11/19/2005 4:25:40 AM

Eastern Pennsylvania

John and Ron, I agree with both of you.

11/20/2005 3:17:59 PM