From

Location

Message

Date Posted

Southeast Wisconsin

I believe that some growers have taken parts of a plant that has good genetics and held them over to grow on for the next year. Why has there been no success with this? If one were take a piece of viable vine from say the Larry Checkon's plant that produced the world record, planted it out the following spring, used self polination on it, would you not produce a fruit that has all the genetics that Checkon's plant had? Therefore the fruit that would be produced would have seeds that would carry the exact same gene pool has Checkon's plant had that produced the world record. Winter is long isn't - The mind conjures up all kind of things this time of year!!!

12/10/2005 8:47:20 PM

Western NY

the largest pumpkin off a clone was 720 pounds. I expect there to be a VERY good chance of a 1000+ off a clone in 2006.

beyond selfing - imagine crossing the plant that grew the 1469 with the plant that grew the 1407.

that and even more interesting prospects to come in the next few years. just wait!

12/10/2005 8:58:09 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Ah, A project I am currently working on. I believe this is a very viable possibility. Check my diary out for some details. I have an indoor clone, 3rd generation plant, that is now approaching 1 year old. I first started the 695* Landry 04 seeds in late December 2004. Yesterday I began to re-pot the first vine section for a 4th generation of the same plant.

Last year I set about a plan to try this from seeds started indoors. I know this is not the traditional why of cloning but I had to start with something. I found the cloned plant was exceptionally strong as it received little protection from wind, rain & cold. The 695* cloned plant quickly became the master of my patches and out produced several other good seeds in the protection of heated hoop houses. The fruit split due to a blossom end problem in late July and was harvested on August 11th at 555 pounds.

In 2006, I hope to prove that the vigorous growth of the original 695* clone was not a fluke.

This plant was well on it's way to 1000 pound production, so it is possible.

Next year if you know of someone who wants to try this and has a huge pumpkin just let me know! I will be the first person there with a shovel and a sharp knife and some rooting hormones.

12/11/2005 12:31:31 PM

Southeast Wisconsin

Barrie, I think you are heading in the right direction.

Another idea I have is grafting. At one time I was involved with hydroponic tomato production whereby it is common practice to graft. The process is quite simple: Seedings about 7-10 days old after emerging are cut and place onto a variety that is known to have a vigorous root system and a lot of times resistent to various diseases. A little band is placed on the two stems, the seedlings are kept in a high humidity area for a week and the graft takes.

I think that this method could work with AG's you would just have to know what rootstock has proven itself to be very vigorous. A lot of strains are grown yearly that probably have these traits, it just needs to be sorted out.

RUSS

12/11/2005 1:54:48 PM

Mn

cloning plants for '06

1068 Wallace
1180 Deltas
1420 Larue
1446 Eaton

other seeds I may potencially clone.
1058 Papez
1016 Deltas
????????

I have lots more I just have to start learnig how to set up my cloning operation. I really want the 1068 to be cloned just to keep thos genetics around for as long as possible. That way when all 1068's have been grown I still have one to work with. Cloning will lengthen the life of great seeds. jsut think you cloud have graet plants from 2005 in the year 2020. Just think crossing a 1446 with a 10000 XXX pumpkin

I would also like to figure out a better way to send clones through the mail.

12/11/2005 4:22:02 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Stokey, I don't know much about graft's. The topic has been briefly discussed here before. I don't believe anyone has ever identified disease resistance in AGP's. It might be a good project to try in the winter. Please send me some links so I can learn some more about grafting. Your idea has some merit. The injury stress of the graft wound, could spur root growth and development.

The vigorous growth of my cloned plant, that I saw was unexpected. There has been a fair bit of prior debate about clones and the lack of a tap root. Could it be that they support more adventitious root growth? Not enough information is available to date concerning AGP's and cloning to make a definitive statement...

Check out the article and 2001 diary entries by Marc Sawtell(Madman marc).
http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=968

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/ViewArticle.asp?id=31&gid=2
http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=44830

12/11/2005 9:06:24 PM

Southeast Wisconsin

Barrie,

Check this link out: http://www.arc-avrdc.org/pdf_files/Melquiades3(8-N).pdf#search='grafting%20%20cucurbits' It's a good showing how to graft cucurbits.

As for cloning, I believe that one of the problems that has been encountered is that the first generation of the clone, if planted out, is missing an important part of the plant, which is the tap root and its root system. If a meristem of a genetically superior plant was grafted, it then would be a complete plant and should theoretically produce the same results that it had the season before if not better (obviously the same conditions should occur to get the same results).

Russ - GO PACKERS!

12/11/2005 10:51:17 PM

Ontario, Canada.

OK I agree. But, I'm not Barrie. I'm Russ. I was a Lions fan. After the last brutal few weeks, I've given up on them.

Wow, that article was interesting. Guess what I will be doing next weekend. I just planted a couple of dozen seeds for testing and this is great to try out.

The eye opener is that 10 to 17 days was gained for flowering in using an older sectioned scion. These are similar results to the clones main benefit that Marc first identified. Earlier flowers were a direct result of his early attempts at cloning. I noticed the same effect in my patches this year. This time advantage alone makes it worth the effort.

Say a grower starts 50 seeds in clear containers and determines the fastest growing root stock. Then he starts 50 seeds and determines the fastest growing vine stock......Put the two together and super-size them............Neat idea, Russ......

I would like to hear more, keep it coming. This could hold much promise.

Good Luck & Good Growing

Russ Landry

12/12/2005 2:24:48 AM

ENGLAND

Guys
Very interesting thread here, thank's for bringing all the information to light.

Regards
Mike

12/12/2005 3:42:16 AM

Western NY

ooohhh, damn! thanks for that link stokey. I have been looking for pics for a how-to on ag grafting, and that's exactly what i wanted to see.

now - here's another topic to consider.

what are the chances that the root stock provides the power behind the fruit that go extremely heavy to the chart? imagine grafting a "beautiful fruit" vine onto a nice heavy squash root system.

12/12/2005 9:28:01 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Andy, it appears there are many combinations that could be tried. The trick will be in identifying the positive factors you want to graft. This could work for heat toleration, fruit size, fruit thickness, disease resistance and many other variables...I stayed up until 6am researching this topic last night, and there is reams of information available. I don't know why we didn't stumble on this before. Yes, very good work stokey.

12/12/2005 9:52:20 AM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

Who is going to be the 1st to kill their 1068 plant trying to graft it? :) Grafting has to be an unneccesary stress induced on a plant.

12/12/2005 10:22:45 AM

Western NY

i'm not thinking like that Shannon.

imagine the scenario:

perhaps the plant that grew the 1469 is still alive and growing.

I have a lot of scrap seed from my 450 wolf (815 andersen x 535* wolf). pumpkin pollinated with a squash. the seed will never be grown. the 815 was always one of my most agressive plants each time i planted it.

start a bunch of those seeds, snip snip, and you don't have to worry about a "stumpless clone" ever again.

12/12/2005 10:27:01 AM

Indiana

How the heck do you plan on grafting the stem from a full size clone onto a rootstock from a seedling?? It doesnt seem very possible.
Steve

12/12/2005 10:49:37 AM

Western NY

well, i'll let you know if it works in a few weeks, lol.

12/12/2005 11:10:39 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Shannon, strees has not been a significant factor in any of the research journals I have read.

Steve, the clone effectively is the seedling. Simply harvest two cuttings(clones)from different plants. Now you two shoots that are similar in size.

12/12/2005 1:06:00 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Stress....Sorry

12/12/2005 3:42:03 PM

Ohio

Russ, when you clone a plant in the winter and then plant it outside in the spring at ,what does the roots look like in the NEW stump area? I never tried to clone but often wondered about how you would get a really good root (Roots) system going like you would in a regular planting just from seed.

I always wondered what the roots of a clone looked like on and around the so called stump area after it produced a decent size pumpkin.

12/12/2005 5:28:47 PM

Ohio

I really like this grafting idea ,Ive planted 2 seeds about 15 Minutes ago and plan on planting two more tomorrow, Im going to try to graft two diffrent seedlings. I think it would be best to plant them a day apart, that way when your grafting the seedlings one would be a little smaller then the other to make the graft fit just right. Think it will work? Russ? ,,Andy?,stokey?

Brooks

12/12/2005 6:06:24 PM

Western NY

yup brooks, that's my idea too. going to do some experimenting here also.

12/12/2005 7:04:44 PM

Mn

Very interesting articles. I think it is a very interesting way of increasing root vigor. Howerver the one article mentioned that grafting could reduce the amount of seeds found in the fruit. I wonderif this is a big concern or not. Any answers?

12/12/2005 8:00:02 PM

sevierville, Tn

Wow, that looks way too easy. So lets dream, take a clone from ... say a 1446 eaton at the end of the season. Keep it all winter. In the spring plant 5 root stocks, graft 5 shoots from clone onto root stock. Presto 5 new complete 1446 eaton plants to grow for the year.

12/12/2005 8:07:54 PM

Southeast Wisconsin

Russ, what a coincidence, my name is Russ also, Russ Stokes to be precise an I happen to be watching the Packers and Detroit game as I was making a post here.
On grafting, it definitely needs to be tried in order to work out a technique. Wouldn't you just love to have a piece of Checkon's vine growing for the purpose of taking some small meristems/scions off it and then graft onto known vigorous root stocks. My belief is that the plant that produces a record fruit or has very desirable characteristics could possibly more valuable to growers than the seeds from the fruit!

I am going to try some grafting here shortly. My plan is to take a sprouted seedling and graft it onto another seedling. I will keep you posted as to the results.

Packers are bad but Detroit is even worst!

Russ Stokes

12/12/2005 8:14:54 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Shannon, back in the spring there was one on this site whose name I promised never to mention again who led us to believe that stress on a plant was a good thing...I think the big guy (hint, hint) said that driving a tractor over your pumpkin plants was good for them.????? LOL Peace, Wayne
ps don't quote me though

12/12/2005 8:42:23 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Brooks, I don't know what the roots looked like. I just saw that the unprotected, cloned plant grew much more vigorously than all of my other plants.

The technique of grafting should work, it's well documented for pumpkins.

Russ, Not to down play this, but the main challenge I can foresee is in identifying good root stock from bad. We are already working with the biggest vegetable on the planet. It is hard to imagine how we could possibly improve such massive root system of an AGP.

I will try grafting some of my seedlings in the next few days. I hope to get started as soon as this weekend.

Russ L.

12/12/2005 9:17:34 PM

Mn

I've seen this technique used to create bonsi trees before. I know there is a couple different ways to connect two independant plants together. I'll post some of the other techniqes uesd to graft plants in my diary some time this week. I wonder weather grafting will cause new mutations not unlike ribbon vine or flat vine? Just seeing that your conectiong one genetically different root system to one genetically different plant. Whats your take on it guys.


I think I have the sollution though to creating the worlds largest pumpkin. See we have a nuclear power plant closs by our town, so why not steal some of the radoi-active water and spray our pumpkin patches with it. With the threat of terorism every where I would like to state that I'm just joking.

12/12/2005 10:08:51 PM

Plymouth,ma

i am new to growing these large pumpkins. i believe in seed genetics and soils and plant nutrition and hydration. i don't know how much i agree w/ grafts and clones. my hort background experience tells me its all about roots. all plant materials ( above ground ) are directly related and propoortional to whats in the ground, i.e. roots. imagine if your pumpkin could take in more water, more food etc. in a regular growing period? a well started seedling will do well, but what if this seedling had a mature root system when you planted into your patch in the spring. its intake ability would be dramatically accellarated. i am trying whats called root control bags. unlike growing something in a pot where there is pot binding of roots, a control bag encourages a more fibrous root system. they work like manual root pruning. what if i start my seeds now, and prune back a vine to encourage all development at my root structure only. also controlling temp. to retard the urge to flower in a forced condition. come spring you drop in this massive root ball system and let in go crazy as temps warm up. in theory this plant would have a mega head start with the ability to suck up massive nutrients and hydration. what do you all think?

12/18/2005 8:54:34 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Root control bags work great for tree and shrubs. I'm not sure how they would work for our fast growing vegetables.

In theory that might work. Problems you may run into are root girdle. Pumpkins have a very agressive tap root system. This is the main reason why many growers try to get plants into the ground quickly. I have seen plants grown in 4" peat pots that have tap roots growing in a circle at the bottom of the pot. I have also harvested plants that have some the main roots severely girdled.

It has been speculated in the past that more adventitous(fiborous) roots promote easer uptake of calcium and nutrients. This may promote quicker growth.

12/19/2005 9:39:31 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

The number & size of little tertiary suckers that appear all winter on a cutting will provide many good cloning opportunities. Stagger your root stock donor germinations so as to insure a ready supply of equal size stocks to work with.

12/19/2005 5:34:32 PM

Greencastle, PA

what if you grafted one plant onto multiple root syetems?

12/19/2005 5:52:28 PM

Plymouth,ma

kahuna... the root control bags are an engineered fabric material that allows the root tips when they reach the sides of the bag to dead end and branch off. thus creating more fine feeder roots. the bag works like root pruning without the stress. the bag actually prevents root girdle. the other benefit to these bags are the ability to plant and transplant at any time because the root system is never disturbed. in a controlled environment one could grow a massive root system in a hot house , force under growing temps, and force a flower and pollinate w/ self ( no bees ) again controlling root growth and vine growth w/ pruning. in theory you could have a pumpkin months before anyone has even got outdoors to plant seeds. transplanting outdoors from the root control bag would not stress or harm the plant. the introduction to the outdoor patch would be seemless and trouble free? maybe??

12/19/2005 6:33:04 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

hey you...what a concept...AGGC will be sending you hate mail soon!!! LOL Peace, Wayne
PS wheelbarrows...you obviously have great seeds to test the theory...go for it...!!!!!

12/19/2005 9:01:05 PM

Norton, MA

To me the problem would be how the heck do you suppose most growers to be able to cleanly dig up, lift, and transplant a root bag 30 feet wide and weighing tens of thousands of pounds? AleX Noel.

12/19/2005 10:44:23 PM

Plymouth,ma

gr8 pumpkin...... i'm not talking about letting this thing root out and produce major vine growth. in a patch a pumpkin root is going to sprawl . in a root bag ( 30 gal. ) it can be grown in hot house, while pruning back vine ( i mean pruning all the way to the stem.) as w/ any pruning rooting is encouraged naturally. in a control bag the root system does not sprawl and form singular tapping style roots. it will instead rather create fibrous thick massive dense root systems. these bags can be grown in above ground like any plant growing in a container. the key is the transplanting is easy. not digging. simply cut away the bag and place into patch. the roots are undisturbed and uncut and booming w/ growth. are you fimiliar w/ bulb development? the comcept is similar. bulb growers cut back their bulb flowers in the fields when in flower. this makes the plant concentrate energy on roots. in this case it would be the development of more and bigger bulbs. i am suggesting growing a pumpkin pre flower this way. by cutting back the vine therefore developing a bigger root system that at planting time ( may / june ) would be a mature root system.

12/20/2005 6:46:34 PM

Plymouth,ma

also. a typical uncontrolled root system is large in space it encompasses. a contolled root system is considerably smaller in space. for instance a single tap root stretching sending off many greatly spaced feader roots could take up a large area. a root system controlled, will take up less space and be denser with more feeder roots more closely associated. this is also important for target feeding and watering. no i'm not talking about a mature in a sense of a fully grown pumpkin plant w/ mature vines , pumpkin etc. i'm only suggesting the idea of developing a monster root system pre season.

12/20/2005 6:52:56 PM

Norton, MA

OHHHHHHH., O.K., shouldn't have questioned a fellow Massachuttsien (Massachussenite?). That is interesting, where can root bags like this be gotten, and how exactly do they "prune" the vines at the edges and not just turn them back inward? Thanks, AleX Noel.

12/20/2005 7:20:23 PM

Plymouth,ma

Go Mass. Pumpkins!! they can be gotten from commercial tree growing suppliers. but usually have to be purchased in quantity. the root control bags are made of engineered fabric. this fabric will make a callous at root tip when root tip makes contact with edge of bag/ container. the callous then will promote offshoots. like root pruning or any type of pruning for that matter, after a cut or prune, multiple shoots are encouraged and generated. in the case of roots this is good. with these bags and this callousing affect, it doesn't harm or stress the plant as would a cut or shovel pruning. understand the bags are for root development not vines.

12/20/2005 9:57:57 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Stokey, were are you...Please contact the kahuna.

12/22/2005 9:26:16 AM