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milford, CT,

Lets just say you were growing an 845 Bobier, 898 Knauss, and 670 Daigle. If you mixed the pollen from the 898 and 670 together and used it to pollinate the 845, would the 845 get genes from both pollinators or would it only select one set of genes? Mark

12/26/2005 9:46:27 PM

Picton,ON (j.vincent@xplornet.ca)

Theoretically each lobe leads to a separate seed pocket. Separate pollen grains could pollinate each lobe, so I suppose that if the pollen was mixed you could have different genetic crosses within a given pumpkin. That being said, each seed pocket would only accept a single set of genes. By mixing pollen you would have no way of knowing which seeds have which genetics.

12/26/2005 9:56:19 PM

milford, CT,

That's what Tremor said but I figured someone else must have thought about trying to add 2 characteristics in one year. So I guess some seeds would pick up % heavy genes while others would pick up more orange genes. Without knowing which seeds were pollinated by which pollen grain I guess this wouldn't be of any advantage.

12/26/2005 10:03:39 PM

SF Bay Area, California

The mechanics of pollination are even a bit more complex than you have described above. Each lobe leads to a separate overy in the pumpkin and each seed is pollinated by a different grain of pollen. Having two pollinator plants then increases the variation you will see in the offspring.

12/27/2005 1:12:29 AM

Syracuse, NY

being that one can get several hundred seeds from
a pumpkin that was pollinated by ONE male flower,
i would never pollinate a fruit by multiple males,
as the controlled cross is of the utmost importance, even if there was only one male throughout my patch that day.
just a matter of really using-up that male, i guess!

12/27/2005 2:50:02 AM

Ohio

If I have a 5 lobe female and only take 1 grain of pollin and only put it in one lobe of the flower,what would happen? Would only that lobe inside the pumpkin have seeds? How many seeds do you think one lobe pollinated with only one grain of pollin will produce on average?

Brooks

12/27/2005 10:53:22 AM

Long Island,New York

1 pollen grain makes 1 seed.

12/27/2005 11:12:45 AM

Long Island,New York

2 pollen grains make 2 seeds

12/27/2005 11:13:28 AM

SF Bay Area, California

The mechanics of how this works is facinating. The grain of pollen will grow a fine hair-like structure (i forget what it's called) down through the lobe into the overy when it reaches a seed it will deposit it's load of genetic material into that seed. Like Mr. G says 1 pollen grain fertilizes one seed. They don't swim home, they have to tunnel...

vince

12/27/2005 11:28:38 AM

Long Island,New York

Its called a pollen tube.

12/27/2005 1:14:23 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Using multiple males is similar to an open pollination whereby some of the resulting seeds will be from each of the two male pollen donors. So in one fruit we have created two crosses. But the seeds aren't labeled so we will have no idea which kid has which father until we grow them on & make our own observations. But even then we can't PROVE anything without a DNA lab.

Eric sounds as if he prefers one male flower only. If I read that accurately then he might be on to something. This is probably the best way to insure genetic purity. Hear me out on this.....

We now tread our way into the murky land of genetic variation among male flowers collected from the same plant. Are we asking for trouble when we use multiple male flowers even if they do come from the same plant?

Just like anyone else who has grown these things for a few years I know for a fact that shape & color variations exist among different female flowers found on the same plant. I have posted the photographic eveidence right here on my 2004 diary.

If the fruit (females) offer up a variety of visual traits (on the same plant), then certainly the genetic code of the resulting seeds are also variable. Do males offer up a variety of traits in the pollen within their flowers? Or do different flowers express differnet traits on the same plant?

Should the genetic purist seek only one single male flower so as to reduce genetic variations in the next generation?

This could be a real source of frustration.

12/27/2005 2:32:06 PM

Sioux Falls, SD garyboer@dakotalink.com

Could one carefully separate the lobes,
pollinate each lobe separately,
seal apart and mini-bag for a few hours
and get a pumpkin with different crosses
yet somehow divide seeds up by sections?

12/27/2005 2:52:47 PM

Western NY

Gary - Brett hester did that years ago, not sure on the outcome of his experiment.

Steve - I have been doing 2 males per female (more than that seems overkill for me), but I may switch to one if i can assure myself of a complete pollination. something to keep in mind for the coming years.

12/27/2005 2:55:40 PM

Ohio

Wonder how many males flowers was used on the 723 Bobier,I dont think more then 2 or 3 because of its consistancy of growing big pumpkins, am I on the right track?

12/27/2005 4:18:05 PM

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

Last year I came up with the idea of sticking a shaped dart flight on the blossom end to enable four crosses on a 4 lober didn't get around to trying it yet,not sure this would be an acceptable cross to other growers.

12/27/2005 4:57:49 PM

Syracuse, NY

well, uhhhh, hmmm, i gotta admit i do prefer three to
six males per pollination, lol, but i suppose it would make sense to use only one if it DOES improve the purity of the cross...i cannot take credit where it is not due.
i had thought once or twice about doing that with a
tiny amount of pollen, just applying it to like ONE lobe and hoping for the best, but have never had the heart!
lol-----if anyone else ever benefits from Tremor's
interpretation of my own post above, then more power to them, and it will be neat-o to hear about it.
i, myself, will stick to "really using-up that male"!
As we had learned to say in like third grade about the paper towels:
"Use it up, wear it out. Make it do or do without!" oyyyy!!!

12/27/2005 7:10:53 PM

Pumpkintown, SC

Steve, this is exactly what I started doing a couple years ago for exactly the reasons you discuss. In the absense of facts, it just makes too much sense(to me) to not be accurate. I will continue to do this until proven wrong, BF

12/27/2005 7:23:24 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Sorry Eric. I read your earlier post wrong. I see what you meant now.

I think the problem we perceive of using one male is the chance for fewer seeds. But the advantage could be greater genetic stability. Of course this could work against us too. If the chosen male had somehow inferior traits then the result could be consistently lousy progeny.

But all this just assumes that males exhibit genetic variety in their pollen. We don't really know this to be the case. I'm being difficult because its winter & we need to debate something with no elections going on.

12/27/2005 11:05:24 PM

Syracuse, NY

no need to be sorry, Trem;

everybody's a little smarter than
anyone ELSE thinks they are, lol!
this whole thing has made me think of something i had never thought of before...but it is late and i forgot what it was.
DOH!!! good morning, pumpkinland----eric

12/28/2005 12:28:35 AM

Syracuse, NY

DANG! now i see where the misinterpretation could be found!
i SHOULD have said i would never pollinate a fruit with
multiple, DIFFERENT males, like (845 X 790, 1140 and 898)!

yeah, it sounded like i was a one-flower kinda guy;
ohhh, not the case; just if they are incredibly scarce--eg

12/28/2005 12:32:10 AM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

I just noticed that too Eric, now that you pointed it out. I guess Tremor can be excused:-)

12/28/2005 12:40:18 AM

Ohio

Dang Eric, I think I would have taken credit for the one male pollination idea, you was starting to sound like you knew what you was talking about but then you ruined it!!!!!.,,,,lol ( Im just Kidding ya my NY pumpkin growin buddy!,lol)

12/28/2005 1:09:16 AM

Eastern Pennsylvania

The traits of the individual male flower the pollen comes from can have no effect on the traits passed on to the offspring. Every pollen grain is a unique combination of the plant's genetic material. Each flower on the same plant has the same potential. Pollinating with more than one plant makes no sense for obvious resons. Pollinating with multiple males from the same plant does make sense, because 1 pollen grain = 1 seed; the more pollen, the more seeds! Jim

12/28/2005 10:32:03 AM

Pumpkintown, SC

Jim, "Pollinating with multiple males from the same plant does make sense, because 1 pollen grain = 1 seed; the more pollen, the more seeds!" Yep, if your goal is more seeds...
If your goal is more consistent progeny, keep in mind, "Every pollen grain is a unique combination of the plant's genetic material." The more male flowers used, the more genetic combinations possible. That's how I view it. Opposing views welcome, BF

12/28/2005 12:17:43 PM

Eastern Pennsylvania

point taken, BF. I guess I was just looking from the standpoint that if a few seeds from my pumpkins do well, then I want as many of them as possible, to grow and to give away.

If your goal was further along, like wanting to make a back-cross in the next season, then maybe fewer seeds would be better.

But by having less seeds, you have less chance of stumbling on that ultimate combination. What if you only get 15 seeds (or 1 seed for that matter) and they are all duds? Then you might give up on that line, not realizing that the magic was in there all along! Just thinking out loud.

12/28/2005 12:42:13 PM

Long Island,New York

ok Brian...I pollen grain=1 seed = absolutely no variation in seeds !

12/28/2005 12:49:57 PM

Syracuse, NY

yeah, Brooks, i pulled a HOMER! DOE!!!!!

(remember the episode where they found out he saved the
town from nuclear disaster by using
"eenie-meenie, my-knee, Mow" to choose the
anti-meltdown button at the newclear power (AG) plant?

well, it is sorta like that....lol...you funny!---eric g

12/28/2005 2:06:57 PM

Eastern Pennsylvania

"no AG and no beer make Homer..something..something"

"Go crazy?"

Don't mind if I do!

12/28/2005 2:34:56 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

I have to agree with Brian on this. I have no evidence it is true other than what I have seen. Growing a Cutting in 2004 made for an eye opening experience. The same plant (845 Bobier) was grown 15 miles north of here in 2003 & exhibitted very short stems. Yet the same plant had very long stems when grown here in '04. That isn't genetic variation. That is an environmental influence.

However I grew an 842 Eaton the same year. I pollinated 2 fruit on the 842 on the same day. One ended up with mammoth ribs & wrinkled skin by the third week while the other was smooth as a babies butt. Since there was NO change in envirnment, I have to attribute that difference to genetic variation.

So if 2 different females on the same plant can be so widly different, why can't 2 male flowers exhibit a similar difference.

Of course the SEEDS produced in 2 otherwise identical appearing females can also be widly differing. But then is that the genetic code or are we just getting very unlucky in the "environmental influence department"??????

Or could there be other influences at work that we aren't yet discussing?

12/28/2005 7:44:24 PM

Sioux Falls, SD garyboer@dakotalink.com

Is the diff between male flowers any greater than the diff between grains of pollen in the same flower?

12/28/2005 10:08:58 PM

Sioux Falls, SD garyboer@dakotalink.com

. . .also regarding the unintended yet interesting thread regarding controlled multi-pollination...if one does achieve pollination by sector or lobe, is it easy to track to pumpkin part and reliably harvest knowing what you got?

12/28/2005 10:12:29 PM

Norton, MA

It would be easy enough as the segments on the inside of a FRESH pumpkin are easily visible. With any internal rot though, the seeds will all be floating and mixed, so it wouldn't work. AleX Noel.

12/28/2005 11:09:07 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

I don't think anyone knows how much variation there is between pollen grains let alone between flowers on the same plant. In theory there is NO difference between ANY pollen ever derived from seeds from the same fruit. But this is the *genetic potential* which is the same.

This is where the breeders lose me & why I detest this subject so much LOL.

I would like to know not only why certain traits are exhibitted but also how to influence their expression.

Maybe the key is to self/sib these things (growing out ALL of the progeny) until genetic stability returns & some really predictable progeny traits result.

It seems that Vince & some others are getting closer in color. And this is part of the quest isn't it? We want blaze orange fruit that regularly bust 1000#, never split, have nice long stems, weigh heavy OTC, vines lay down by themself, resist insects & diseases of all kinds, need no supplemental water or fertilizer, etc, etc, etc......LOL

I think it's time to crack open the books again.

12/29/2005 8:40:54 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

I would be very concerned about locating the correct segments inside the fruit after pollination. There is always the chance that the segment at 1 O'Clock on July 1st ended up rolling over to 3 O'Clock by Oct 2nd.

Has anyone ever injected a tracer color dye into a segment (lobe) at pollination & tried to locate it at season's end?

Like that other segmented thread this is a cool idea for an experiment & one I'd love to see performed: Take 2 radically different males like a 552 Sherwood* & an 810 Dill so that the progeny are fairly easy to predict by visuals. Choose a "goofy" female like an 845 Bobier that is already on the color line & see what results from each segment.

12/29/2005 8:51:55 AM

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

The best use that I thought of for it was 5 sibbs so you get all the possibilities in one fruit and can choose the best combination of plants at the end of the season and since they would all be the same cross anyway the possibilties of human error are less significant.

12/29/2005 11:31:02 AM

Utah

so how many grains of pollen are there in one flower-
several hundred ? thousands ?

so how can two flowers be more diverse than one ?
I think that the numbers of grains are large enough in one flower that adding a 2nd or 3rd isn't going to change the diversity (possibilities) much if any.
Now if there were only a few grains in each flower then that would be a different story.... but when you have hundreds or thousands of grains I'd say that all of the possibilities are statically already there.
each pollen grain is randomly produced by the genetic material available in the pool. I don't think it matters on bit which flower it came from.

.
.
.
.
.
600 pollen grains make 600 seeds ...

12/29/2005 12:37:02 PM

Eastern Pennsylvania

According to this PhD's reference, there are 20,000 to 30,000 pollen grains per male AG flower!

http://www.homestead.com/henryholman/files/pumpkin_pollination_rules.html

12/29/2005 4:18:17 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Harold Eddleman Ph.D. has worked extensively with corn and even dabbled briefly with a few AGP growers (Eaton & Rivard)in the late 90's on a approach in selective breeding of AGP's. His AGP work was documented and makes for very good reading to those interested. Google Harold Eddleman for more info or follow the links listed below.

http://www.disknet.com/indiana_biolab/pk700.htm

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2005-32,GGLG:en&q=Harold+Eddleman+Ph%2ED%2E+Microbiologist++pollen

12/29/2005 5:39:49 PM

Pumpkintown, SC

"According to this PhD's reference, there are 20,000 to 30,000 pollen grains per male AG flower!"
Yeah, that ought to be enough seeds, lol.

12/30/2005 1:38:03 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Doctor Eddleman, makes note that not all pollen grains are viable in some of his letters. However for our controlled pollination's we know that one flower is in fact all that is required to fully pollinate a flower. The uniqueness of each flower either male or female has been proven time after time as several growers have previously tried same crosses with far dissimilar results.

12/30/2005 5:19:35 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Not all of the pollen grains are erupted at any given time especially in the morning when we make our pollinations so I understand why we all reach for as many males as we have that are "ready". It takes more than open petals. Heat is needed to give pollen "rise".

12/30/2005 6:00:03 PM

Alaska

Very interesing stuff! My 2 cents worth says if you want the line tight, more homogenous, self, using several males from same plant. Accepting the good with the bad. Clone for identical and cross pollination of as many plants for greater genetic diversity. Who know what's hiding in those genes yet to be revealed. Tight line, more hybrid like or Open Pollinated, grab bag?? Interesting?? Later Scott.

12/30/2005 6:49:56 PM

Ft. Branch, IN (stevenson@sit-co.net)

"600 pollen grains make 600 seeds ..."

This (to me) makes sense as to why we had low seed counts in '05. There were a lot of problems with pollination and aborts due to the heat. It would make sense that even when we did had a successful pollination, not as many pollen grains would take.....thus giving us a low seed count.

My "revelation" may be common knowledge to the rest of you, but it just clicked with me! LOL

1/2/2006 12:32:05 AM

Alaska

I would question that line of thinking(Low seed count due to poor pollination caused by heat)? I think when you constantly inbreed you not only loss genetic diversity but you also lose seedling vigor and the amout of viable seeds you get? That's just my opinion, later Scott.

1/2/2006 2:20:03 PM

Indiana

Spudly I agree with ya but the low seed count thing really only happened extensively this year.

1/2/2006 5:07:13 PM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

Spudley,
I don't know If I'd agree with you. Some open pollinated(OP) tomatoes(inbred) I've grown, seem to have a large seed count. I haven't made a point of looking at the seed counts of my OP squash and Howden pumpkins, as I haven't saved these seeds. But it seems in the past, that they've had a fine seed count for roasted pumpkin seeds.

1/3/2006 1:44:54 PM

Eastern Pennsylvania

Doug, the tomato is an inbreeding plant... they are naturally supposed to pollinate this way. The AG's are outbreeders so I would expect them to react differently to selfing over several generation.

But, I have to agree with stevenson's observations regarding the 2005 seed counts. -Jim

1/3/2006 2:07:42 PM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

Jim,
Your correct regarding tomatoes being primarily self pollinating plants.
But what about all the open pollinated squash(highly inbred I suspect) that are grown? Blue Hubbard, for instance, which is a maxima species(same as A.G.s).

1/3/2006 2:54:47 PM

Long Beach, CA

Interesting disussion! I was thinking about the possible number of combinations of genetic material that can be passed on to the seeds, whether it's possible to have genetically identical seeds within a pumpkin, and here's what I came up with... I once asked here about the number of chromosomes c. maxima has, but I forgot so I'll use humans as an example... Humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes, 56 chromosomes total. A child will therefore recieve one chromosome of each type from each of his or her parents. Assuming that each chromosome donated by either parent is chosen randomly from the two chromosomes of that type in the parent's set of genetic material, how many combinations does that make? If we take a single pair of chromosomes and say that the mother has chromosomes 1A and 1B, and that the father has chromosomes 1C and 1D, there are 4 possible combinations of that type of chromosome that the baby can enherit: 1A+1C; 1A+1D; 1B+1C; and 1B+1D. Repeat that for the 22 other pairs of chromosomes and the total number of combinations is 4^23, or approximately 70,368,744,180,000... over 70 trillion. If we apply the same concept to AGs, the chance of having two identical seeds in a pumpkin would be esentially 0... just my 2 cents.

1/4/2006 3:34:50 PM

Eastern Pennsylvania

Actually, it is quite a bit more complex than that. We are not just talking about the recombination of the pairs of chromosomes themselves, rather the recombination of the genetic sequences they contain. And each chromosome can contain millions of sequences. Correct me if I'm wrong of course. I think I remember from genetics class that the genetic material of a single human cell, although only nanometers wide, would stretch from here to the sun. Or something like that lol. But suffice to say, the odds of two identical combinations is one in a number too large to conceive. -Jim

1/4/2006 5:09:41 PM

Alaska

Let's say you grow 2 pumpkin plants from 2 different lines and you cross them. I was wondering which plant has the most influence on the progeny. The female plant or male plant or does it matter? Is there a dominate parent M-F? Later Scott.

1/4/2006 7:14:12 PM

Long Beach, CA

You're right Jim, I forgot about the scrambling of genes that takes place when the genetic makeup of the pollen grains is decided in mitosis... That would make the 70 trillion much to small an estimate.

1/4/2006 9:27:25 PM