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Middleton, WI

Can anyone tell me why more growers aren't taking the time to create a F1 hybrid by crossing two self crosses with desirable traits. Since AGs do not appear to be influenced by inbred depression, it would seem that more growers would be creating an F1. The potential benefits of creating a seed with a higher chance of desirable traits (color, size, shape) would seem to be the way to go. Comments please? George

1/27/2006 9:06:43 PM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

Great question George.
I've thought about this as well. I think if there were more lines of inbred seeds out there, it would be a more common breeding objective.
Also, is there an agreed number of generations of selfing needed to produce a pure line?
I think the 1008.4 Reiss(801.5 Stelts X self) could be a potentially good seed to create a pure strain, if color is the objective.

1/27/2006 10:43:43 PM

Pumpkintown, SC

To answer your question George, "I" would say there are a couple of reasons, not the biggest of which is just plain ignorance. (I believe) most look to create a "catchy" cross, with less thought given to and less understanding of their actual genetics. To create the F1 Hybrid you speak of, 2 selfed crosses would need to be made(as you wrote), unfortunately this is about 2 more selfs than most are willing to create. Selfing is just not in vogue, BORING, though I would say it is slowly on the increase. "Pretty Orange x Pretty Orange, now that's your most popular cross and crossing reasons.
I guess we can just look at it this way. "We're still going to get to where we all want to go, eventually, we just won't know how much quicker we could have gotten there". BF

1/27/2006 11:36:35 PM

Pumpkintown, SC

PS. Doug, to answer your question, "agreed" is a strong word, lol, 5 generation. BF

1/27/2006 11:39:24 PM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

Brian,
I think you make some fine points. It seems to me this might be a better and less complicated beeding strategy than line breeding(which I think is somewhat complicated). I may be wrong here.
I think the most efficient way to go about this is by looking for genetics you want to use, and finding the most desireable selfed seed, with those genetics.
For instance, what I like about the 1008.4 Reiss, is the tall shape at the shoulders, and the fact that it went heavy to the chart. Hopefully it's offspring will do the same.
I also like the 969 Ailts(845 Bobier X self). It had great shape and color(for an 845), and went heavy to the charts.

1/28/2006 12:32:04 AM

Indiana

http://bigpumpkins.com/MsgBoard/ViewThread.asp?b=19&p=140580 Here was a post on selfed seeds there is another one too, they are two pages back on this message board I have one seed teh 962 willemse (spelling?) im planning on crossing with another seed im still waiting on I cant remember the name but it has been selfed for a long time too. I have the 351 wolf also that is a similar cross as the one I want to make the wolf seed should behave like an f1 cross I would guess.

1/28/2006 9:39:03 AM

Norton, MA

Another question is, to create a more pure line do you self a seed(A) and get a fruit with seed(B), then plant (B) and self it and get (C), then plant (C) and self it? Or do you do that with sibbing? Or do you grow and self/sibb (A) to get (B), then cross (B) back with (A) to get (C), then cross (C) with (A) and so on? AleX Noel.

1/28/2006 11:48:04 AM

Ca

That's what I plan on doing with the Boyton 950.4. If I time it just right I can get two generations in a year if I cure the seeds in time. It would cut the time in half that it would take. 2-3 years rather than 5-7 years.

1/28/2006 2:53:01 PM

Rhode Island

a into b?, self into self?, orange into orange?,a into self, into b, crossed with a, back to ?
im glad i dont have a genetics feel like you guys. besides by the time i got an f1 id be at a point where i probably wont remember how i did it in the first place. lmao

seriously though, i give you guys credit for having this long range outlook on the hobby.

me?, i just want to get some out of family genetics bred into the 1068 and hope we catch lightning in a bottle.

thats why im impressed with crossing the 887 lorraine orr into our 1068 line.
the 887 was a very strong producer of big pumpkins even without a hugh run like some of the seeds get today.( i know cause we lost a potential world record off the 887 in 1996.so i have good memories of that run.

why did the wallace 1068 produce such large pumpkins over the last year or two while several copy cat crosses have so far not done so well?
if i could answer that we would all have a 1068 to plant.
just now we would like to duplicate that seeds results for a future run.

i enjoy your observations
thanks
pap

1/28/2006 3:46:52 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Pap, great insight...still waiting on a suggestion for pollinator for the 1173!!! LOL Peace, Wayne

1/28/2006 7:26:36 PM

New Hampshire

Part of the sucess(If not most) of the 1068 is there are a bunch of guys in RI who knows something about GROWING pumpkins. I still maintain that genetics is a crap shoot and I will put more energy into soil science than genetic vodoo. There is also good emperial evidence that sugest it is wise to plant local seeds. Who knows why but the data is something to take notice of.

1/29/2006 11:34:20 AM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

I agree a lot with "bears", although I've yet to come across
a seed that does well in Idaho, lol.

I do think there might be something to the notion of purifying
some lines... then again I planted a popular seed this last
year that was "selfed twice" already... this plant was really
slow. Just bad luck? Maybe.

Someday some university professor phD person is going to look
at how we've advanced this gene pool and be totally amazed
at whats going on here! (Advancing this record year after
year...)

1/29/2006 9:36:06 PM

Pumpkintown, SC

LOL. Unfortunately, genetics and genetic research is not Black Magic. Unfortunate because it would probably be better received by most if it were. Geneticists are real live people. Most of them are really smart too. I've even met one once...though the batteries in my camera went dead just before I could take a picture. LOL. Unfortunately however, it seems to me, most of the time when anyone with this "scientific" background and/or knowledge engages our boards, their "factual" suggestions fall on deaf ears and are even refuted by some of our "personal experiences". I mean come on, we couldn't possibly put "weight"(pun intended) in something someone has said about advancing the giant pumpkin progress, who doesn't have at least a couple 1000 pounders under his belt. Could we? Well, we don't, overall(IMHO).
Like I said above: "We're still going to get to where we all want to go, eventually, we just won't know how much quicker we could have gotten there". BF

2/2/2006 1:55:39 AM

Romney West By God Virginia

Even though my experience with giant pumpkins and/or squash is limited to book knowledge and those kind enough to have answered my endless questions. I do however have a working knowledge of genetics. So here's my take...

When you continue to save seeds from hybrid crosses and cross them without some sort of selection (nearly impossible due to space and time restrictions), stabilization or purification you continue rolling dice hoping for 7's.

Selfed seeds have a stigma about them. I'm not sure if it comes from lack of trust that the grower you got the seed from took due care to assure a controlled self pollination was made or what. Selfing seems to be shunned in the pumpkin world but embraced by the squash world (due to lack of true green parents I guess). From what I have seen most pumpkins grown from a selfed seed have a color and shape very similar to the original fruit and most times a darker color leaning toward the color of the grandmother fruit.

Just something to consider for us new growers dreaming of the hot sought after seeds.

2/2/2006 6:56:13 AM

Eastern Pennsylvania

"Genetic voodoo" ?? lol anyone with cursed seeds feel free to send them to Mount Airy, Maryland!

2/2/2006 10:34:12 AM