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New Hampshire

This is a clarification of my response of an earlier thread "F1 hybrids". Genetics is a real science that I hardly know anything about. As a typical Giant pumpkin grower I rate myself as a Mad scientist. Lets face it we are growing pumpkin Frankensteins. These things aren't normal (and neither are we).
True science needs to be in a controlled constant atmosphere with true accurate measures of observation. Neither in which we have in our patches or seed containers. There is no question in my mind that the genetic seed pool we are working is so inaccurate that our sincere quest for the perfect cross is by the true definition the word must be labeled “unscientific”, hence the poor choice of a word “Voodoo”. Why is the pool inaccurate? Mistakes in labeling, packaging, Phony seeds made in trades, pollination practices I heard of all of these. It only takes a small percentage of these factors to enter in the pool to mess it up in a hurry.

2/2/2006 10:08:52 PM

New Hampshire

I talked to a “real” pumpkin and melon geneticists, Dr Bret Loy from UNH a couple of years ago. He developed hulless pumpkin seeds, Passport and Earli-Queen melons and many others. I knew he was a real scientist because I hardly understood anything he said. As I tried to pick his brain on genetics, he suggested to me that he would cross the heaviest pumpkin with heaviest pumpkins. 1446 x 1420 Hmmmm! What an innovating ideal! The only thing I understood he said sounded to simple and I haven’t given much thought until recently. Could the main reason why the increase in weight on a yearly basis? Every year heavy pumpkins and seeds that throw heavy are being put in the ground. I believe this simple “natural” selection explains the weights going up from the genetic side (we are also learning how to GROW these things too).
Pick a seed any seed with some good performance in its background, get your soil in good condition, follow good gardening practices, a little luck (Maybe a lot) and you are the new World Record holder or the grower with the new hot seed. Site selection, being in the pumpkin belt, good weather also has a huge influence.
Being one of the cult members of the AGGC (Don’t join if you have the chance Mike will brain wash you, and plus one obsession with one pumpkin site is enough) one of the statistics that jump out of me is that good pumpkin growers constantly grow heavy pumpkins. Yes, 801 usually throw orange,1068 usually are ugly, real 845 usually go heavy to the charts so on and so on. He is one of my main points good growers prove seeds not good seeds prove growers. This is not a slam but true scientific observation.

2/2/2006 10:10:25 PM

New Hampshire

Larson was the first to grow the 898 that produced the 1156(24% heavy) that started the 898 craze. NOTHING in that family line even hinted that the 898 was going to produce over the chart pumpkins but I’m sure it was grown because it was a 1 ton cross. A star was born out of obscurity. May I add that the 898 has not produced a pumpkin over 1200 # with every top Grower in the world growing it. ???? Yes, It has been in the family line of a lot of big pumpkins. Maybe that is its real legacy.
Is genetics a real science? Yes, but it made this “scientist” wondering.

2/2/2006 10:10:50 PM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

Jim,
I like your observations. I think a breeder, such as Loy, can give us novice breeders some good ideas. I hear you about the 898 Knauss. It seems better, when it's 50% of the genetic equation(as opposed to the seed itself). Watch, now Mr. Beauchemin may grow a world record off the 898 this yr., and prove us wrong LOL.
I've heard the theory that some 898 crosses may be so successful, due to there relative unrelatedness of the two seeds crossed(hence, possible hybrid vigor?).
I'd like to see a color seed that consistantly throws great color and shape. It seems even the best color producers, are quite variable in both color and shape. I think the hybrid route could lead to a much better consistancy in offspring. It may also lead to a consistant maximum weight, as well, which could take some of the growing exitement out of it.
This is a perfect winter topic. Thank you!

2/2/2006 11:10:00 PM

Eastern Pennsylvania

Jim, I hope you haven't been taking my comment too hard.

I am not a geneticist but I am a scientist, and I thought your word choice was funny. You are right, there is nothing scientific about our patches, but there are still scientific ways to collect data and draw conclusions from it. We just need to be careful not to state things as fact which of course are not; generally they are just a series of loose corrolations between size and lineage. But the data is always skewed of course, because top growers get top seeds.

The seeds I'm going with this year collectively have only thrown a few 1000 pounders but I am planting them because I believe that a) in 2006 almost any AG in the right dirt can hit 1000lbs and b) it is my observation that selfed orange fruits TEND to produce orange fruits.
-Jim G

2/3/2006 3:00:11 PM

New Hampshire

Jim, no offense taken.
Doug, Im sure that is what Jim-B is hoping. But I think he has more hope in his own crosses. If Jim can throw a 1314 from his 500, just think what a good grower can do with it.

2/3/2006 5:54:58 PM

Norton, MA

LOL! He's gonna slam you at the winter dinner for that one Jim. AleX Noel.

2/3/2006 7:28:57 PM

Indiana

I dont know where you get the idea that there was nothing in the background that hinted the 898 was going to produce heavy to the charts..... the 706 Knauss (male pollinator plant offspring) was only estimated at 504 lbs or something like that.

Tom

2/3/2006 7:34:15 PM

New Hampshire

Tom,I don't see any 706 or Knauss in the lineage of the 898. 1007 Brown (-1.54) x 1048 Cox (2.89)

2/3/2006 10:32:11 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

bears, I really tend to agree with you. I think the grower
matters much more than the seed. Once on this list I posed
the question, if you could assign a percentage to the seed
and a percentage to the grower, what would it be?

My own opinion is that it's 70% grower and 30% seed, or maybe
even more. I was shocked to see grower after grower state that
it was 90% seed and 10% grower........ or nearly that!

Oh well. By the way, I do have a 500 Beauchemin and intend
to plant it. That seed is gonna get me over 1000!!!!

2/3/2006 11:36:41 PM

Greencastle, PA

The 1048 Cox plant which pollinated the 898 grew the 706 Knauss that Tom is talking about. The 1048 is from a 914 Wentzell, which was grown from the 1006 Greer, which (by 1996 charts) taped in at 903 pounds. The 1006 goes back to the 722 Holland, which is in the genes of practically everything. The 1062 Rivard is another big one off of the 914, but I'm not sure how it weighed. I'm not familiar with the 769 Brown portion of the 898 genes, so I don't know if there is any other history of heavy OTC pumpkins. I'm amazed at the 898. Nobody would have grown that seed if Larsen didn't. It makes me wonder what else we've passed by.
Tom

2/4/2006 12:11:01 AM

Indiana

Oh come on! LOL

898 itself was 8% heavy, and the pollinator plant produced a 40% heavy fruit..You mean to tell me that there is no indication that the offspring from the 898 could be heavy?

Furthermore, the 1007 and 1048 only account for half of the genetics in the 898, your forgetting the 981 Gervais, and 837 Waller as grandparents. Rumor has it that the 837 Waller was also incredibly heavy.

If you even want to have a shot at guessing % heavy, you also need to know tissue density and wall thickness of all the ancestors. Makes for a lot of hair pulling on my end........

2/4/2006 1:01:11 AM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

That being said about the 898, there are a number 898 fruits that have gone light. I'm guessing the 1260.4 Weir is a more consistant producer of heavy to the chart pumpkins.

2/4/2006 1:06:05 AM

Ohio

709 McCullum is up there also Doug,I think.

2/4/2006 5:05:06 AM

New Hampshire

Thes AGGC does not record % of the 981 and the 837 so if they went heavy that has not entered in to my reasoning. Both fruit record 4 children- 1 went heavy 9%, 2 went light and one not recorded, that could be true for many seeds out there. Those unrecorded numbers might be the missing link. Yes, the 898 went 8% heavy(I would settle for that on scale day) but that is not super star status.
If it was so obvious why did not every plant it in 2002?
Tom from PA, Good ?, what if Larsen didn't grow it? The most powerful AG seed out there is sitting in our shoe boxes (xxx Joe blow cross)
Yes, I will grow the 500(What ever his name is- I forget)even though I don't understand it, it still produced a 1314# fruit that went over chart. I"M not that proud that I wont grow it.To beat Jim( I think that is what his name is) with his own seed will be sweet.

2/4/2006 9:06:29 AM

Hudsonville, Michigan (michiganpumpkins@sbcglobal.net)

Yeah, that is a good question. What if Larsen didn't grow the 898? Or, what if he did grow it and it went only 5% heavy? Would 898 be the 'super seed' it is today?

What about 723? What if it wasn't available at P&P Seed? It's reach would've been much less in 2000 and maybe it would have never taken off.

How about 1068? What if the RI guys didn't get behind that seed and grow the heck out if it? Would we be clamoring after that one?

My point being that the above mentioned ARE great seeds, and they have had the good fortune of having been proven right out of the box. I believe MANY seeds out there have similar potential, but never became a 'super seed' for various reasons. If it doesn't do something incredible in the first year, and isn't followed up with a good showing in year two, it is forgotten and not planted. Creating a super seed takes more than good genes, It also takes good marketing and good luck. Many 'no name' seeds in our collections have the genes to be great ones if we just gave them some patch time...

Just my two cents...

Frank

2/4/2006 1:20:40 PM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

I agree with you Frank. There doesn't seem to be that many accomplished growers willing to take a chance on those unproven seeds(unless it is their own crosses). I don't blame them. I'm planning only 3 competition spots. Not much chance for experimenting. The 1233.5 Reiss may get grown here, though. You gotta like that color cross.

2/4/2006 1:35:49 PM

Hudsonville, Michigan (michiganpumpkins@sbcglobal.net)

Doug:
The 1233 will get some patch time this year for sure, even though it isn't proven. At that size, and with that color, AND being pollinated with an 801 that went over 1000#, seems like a 'can't miss' cross...

2/4/2006 2:52:59 PM

Rhode Island

THERES ONLY TWO WAYS TO DEVELOP A DESIRABLE SEED STOCK IN MY OPINION

1. GET PEOPLE IN YOUR OWN REGION THAT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING TO PLANT IT ( I DO NOT SAY THIS WITH THE INTENTION OF HURTING ANYONE)
THE SOONER GROUPS LEARN TO PULL TOGETHER RATHER THAN THE HEAD TO HEAD INDIVIDUAL COMPETITION THE SOONER THERE WILL BE MORE "HOT SEEDS"
IF I OFFENDED ANYONE I DO APPOLOGIZE. HOWEVER,IF YOU HAD A HORSE YOU WERE ENTERING IN A RACE, AND YOU HAD NO IDEA HOW HE OR SHE WOULD REACT ,WOULD YOU WANT THE LATE GREAT WILLIE SHOEMAKER IN THE SADDLE OR SOMEONE JUST LEARNING THE ROPES?
ALSO
WE GAVE OUT OVER 200 1068 SEEDS AFTER THE 2003 SEASON TO ANYONE WE TRADED WITH. YOU KNOW WHO PLANTED IT? A COUPLE GUYS FROM OUR OWN CLUB.MY SON RON WENT OVER 900 ON A EXTREMELY CHALLANGED PLANT. AND STEVE SPERRY WON TOPSFIELD WITH A PUMPKIN WEIGHING 1253 LBS.
IN 2004 MORE LOCAL SNGPG GROWERS PLUS SEVERAL THROUGH OUT THE US AND EUROPE PLANTED IT WITH BIG TIME SUCCESS.
END RESULT "HOT SEED"

2.BY THE TIME YOU HAVE REACHED THE THIRD SEASON OF PLANTING YOUR SEED IS IN GREAT DEMAND BUT THE SUPPLY IS RUNNING LOW.
SO WHO DO YOU THEN GIVE IT TO?
WE CHOSE TO DONATE AS MANY AS POSSIBLE TO CLUBS FOR THEIR AUCTION, OUR FELLOW SNGPG BROTHERS THAT PUSHED IT INTO THE LIME LIGHTTO BEGIN WITH AND, FELLOW GROWERS THAT TREATED US FAIRLY OVER THE YEARS.

THE MORAL TO THE STORY IS THIS. GET YOUR CLUB TOGETHER YEARLY AND PICK A SEED (OR TWO )FROM YOUR GROUP THAT YOU CAN ALL AGREE HAS THE POTENTIAL. EVERYONE PLANT IT. GO FROM THERE

DICK

2/5/2006 2:20:58 AM

New Hampshire

Trying to preach that to the NH growers.

2/5/2006 7:56:41 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

This thread reminds of the "secret to 1000 lbs" that appeared on the general discussion boards here in 2001.

2/5/2006 9:52:33 AM

Hudsonville, Michigan (michiganpumpkins@sbcglobal.net)

Dick: I stick with three factors to produce a hot seed:
#1 Good genes.
#2 Good marketing.
#3 Good luck.
Using group effort as you have is the best execution of #2, and eliminates the need for #3. Your 1068 should be model for other clubs to follow. You better believe we will be talking about that model at our first ever Michigan Giant Pumpkin Growers meeting next week.

Jim:
So in NH a seed only takes off when a grower gives a scrawny back up 582 to a buddy after frost? :)

Frank

2/5/2006 10:27:27 AM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

I envy the comeraderie of the RI growers(and other New England growers). I think, where it will work, they present a fine model for growers to emulate, in other regions. What RI has going for it, is a good number of accomplished growers living together in a small state. They are willing to help each other. In some other regions, growers are much more spread out, which can make it difficult to emulate the RI growers. I guess cyberspace can be used as much as possible, but it's not the same as personal contact.

2/5/2006 11:54:20 AM

Ohio

Im guessing on this but Id say 65% of the seeds out there today can be grown to a 1000lbs if it was grown by the right person with experience that has excellent soil.

another way to get your own seed proven is to find one of your favorite (HH) growers that grow 1000 lb pumpkins year after year and just ask (beg,lol) them to give your seed a shot. Worst thing that could happen is they say no....... If they do say no, then you bribe them.

2/5/2006 4:03:43 PM

Rhode Island

yes, we know how you feel brooks.the first time someone like dave stelts or jack larue said they wanted a seed of ours to plant i was very excitedand proud.
you are absolutely 150 percent correct. get it in the hands of a few good growers for a true test.because of their ability to get the most of of the seed not because they are any better person than the next guy.hell back a couple years ago id give a seed to charles manson if i thought he could prove it out for us.
dont worry ron and i will give your seed a good honest effort.
i dont consider us heavy hitters because we have lost to many biggins over the years.
we can teach you how, but lady luck sometimes throws a moon or two our way.
hell, if the weighoffs were held in early sept we would be a winner every year ha ha.
remember what i told you. you pick it for us and we will give it a ride. that way i can blame you if it shits the bed lol
( i cant tell you it did not germinate because you sent to many lol- just kidding brother )
pap

2/5/2006 4:22:48 PM

Rhode Island

another good example of the buddy system is jim fords
( bears )farm for troubled youths that he runs in new hampshire.
those kids have to be self sufficient and each has different jobs around the farm.most probably never saw a farm before much less worked on one.
many of them grow giant pumpkins and with jims teachings have been very successfull at topsfield the last few years.
they each have there own plants and jim just mentors them ,they must do the work.
what a place to get your seeds proven out
pap

2/5/2006 4:30:35 PM