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President - GPC

I know that there are growers out there that have selfed seeds. What are the observations, successes and failures. Is there any reading material relating to this that folks already know about? A question is how much of a similarity does a self pass on? Does it filter the genetics by halfing? Does it weaken or create mutantsin the line like inbreeding? Once thing I noticed on the 1068 genetic chart was several open pollinations early but also repeated genetics along parallel lines...... All very interesting. Just wondering the thoughts of growers out there.
Thanks

10/12/2006 2:29:58 PM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

Wiz,
I don't have the answers, but am quite interested in it myself. I'm wondering if an inbred line(maybe 5 yrs. of selfing) of an 845 Bobier, crossed with an inbred line of 898 Knauss, would creat a supercross, with hybrid vigor? It would help, I imagine, to pick self-pollinated seeds from pumpkins with desireable traits.
A few observations....
The 603.5 Muller(845 Nesbitt X self) has a consistant track record of throwing great colored fruit...as far as I'm aware.
The 753 Pappas(898 X self) was over 30% heavy. The few offspring on the AGGC, don't exhibit such extreme heaviness. From my imperfect memory, one was significanly heavier than the estimate, and a couple were near the estimate.
I like your thinking/questioning Wiz.

10/12/2006 3:24:24 PM

Eastern Pennsylvania

The orange color seems to become uniform more easily than the other traits thru selfing.

On a side note, we have noticed some pretty weird stuff going on with the 603.5 Muller seeds this year- not looking as good as before. Of course, I never set one on mine.
Jim

10/12/2006 4:18:47 PM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

Jim,
My 603.5 Muller was throwing wheels. One split at around day 15, and all others aborted, or didn't set(high heat at pollination time). I'm thinking of giving it another try next year(I have one seed left). I'm after great color and shape(maybe it's the luck of the seed draw).

10/12/2006 4:54:42 PM

Dillsburg, PA

Doug, I grew a 603 in 05 and plan to grow more in 07. I had problems setting fruit on it but after about 30 attempts two took and produced very nice orange pumpkins. Not sure if it was heat or just the genetics of the seed. Give it another try.

10/12/2006 5:28:36 PM

Long Island,New York

Perfect shape...perfect color...a little small (364.1, 100,and 95lbs).I will grow again. 364.1Andrews06=603.5Muller x 670Daigle

10/12/2006 7:57:34 PM

Dillsburg, PA

Wow, G that is a killer cross.Post pic of your 364 when you have time.

10/13/2006 5:55:01 AM

Eastern Pennsylvania

Very nice cross. Did you get a pumpkin on the 670 pollinator?

Sorry Wiz we hijacked your post. It seems to me that for the "Big" seeds people tend to steer away from selfing- they always are looking for an attractive cross to convince others to grow their seeds. But us orange addicts, we consider a selfed seed to be desirable because we're not looking for more orange so much as consistant orange.

10/13/2006 11:52:42 AM

President - GPC

Thats OK, Im learning here, I plan to cross and develope simlar yet different. Time will tell the results, The beachball experiment will be for seeds at first then we will see the results in year 08. Ought to be interesting. However the genetics are there, for BIG, ORANGE, and Over the estimate, mother nature decides the rest. Interesting note on the 1068.......way back it had mutilple males in a single pollination.......interesting....
I plan on consulting the master once things settle down for him.....But I want to hear from the other OB1 kanobi'ss out there too on their two cents worth......I am all ears
Keep posting

Thanks Wiz

10/13/2006 12:05:11 PM

President - GPC

Id love to hear from the likes of Langevin and Beachy....or others that have been genetic pioneers....

10/13/2006 12:06:06 PM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

Nic Welty would be another genetics master I believe.

10/13/2006 12:47:45 PM

Dillsburg, PA

Genetic pioneers?

10/13/2006 2:30:10 PM

Garden State Pumpkins

Again I hate to steal the thread but Howard Dill as far as Atlantic Giants go would be a pioneer..many early growers of Dill's Atlantic Giants would be pioneers...Can't ever take away from anyone who grew a huge pumpkin, whose cross grew another world record...but....if Howard Dill didn't hook the early growers where would we be...Now we're getting a little bit selfish with color and shape but remember the idea was just BIG....and Howard just wanted to put smiles on everyones face..so everytime someone breaks a record...or brings one to show the Kids and there's smiles on their faces we've done our job..ok time to get off the soapbox..sorry! Thanks Howard!
Chuck

10/13/2006 6:38:43 PM

Cincinnati,OH

Type in "line breeding" in the search box. There are some interesting threads. I remember pap making a post on the 1068 wallace last year saying the seed has produced pumpkins of every shape and color. But the size of it's progeny speaks for itself.

10/13/2006 8:23:11 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

AGGC data doesn't accurately reflect the early days of AG breeding. Take the 609 Laemmle '89 for example. It is a significant seed that figures heavily in today's most desirable genetics.

Helmet Laemmle grew in relative isolation in New Jersey for many years. Like the Gancarz brothers, he would selectively introduce new genetics probably in a single corner of his patch. Bees would gradually introduce this new influence over several seasons. Today we shun these seeds as "open pollinated" which is sort of justified since we like to think we know what the results of crosses will be.

Laemmle got seeds from Richard Wright who was friendly with the Gancarz brothers. Ed Ford (451 Ford '76) * Howard Fulp were other "New Jersey/PA genetics" era growers.

But Laemmle also selfed within his own "line" for many generations. Keeping within a narrow set of genetics & using self & sibb pollination's has a way of purifying certain traits. If he was patient (as we tend to no longer be) then some very good results could be had over the years.

I suspect that a lot of this was going on in the pre-Dill era. Folks didn't trade seeds like we do today. So smaller groups of growers developed their own "regional genetics". Ed Gancarz once told me how his uncle or grandfather bought a large pumpkin at an ag-fair & told him to start growing it. By doing so in his usual pumpkin fields, he essentially created "open pollinated crosses" that imparted their influence in future generations.

continued

10/13/2006 11:20:49 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

It was Howard Dill who traveled the US & Canada collecting genetics in the early '70's. He then started using it with intelligence to produce his patentable line.

Some say today that Howard's early "Dill-line" genetics aren't as influential as we often give credit. Old Gancarz & Circleville genetic lines have now thoroughly blurred the lines of distinction to the point we may never truly understand.

I think is was Kirk Mombert who crossed the New Jersey/PA lines with a sort of "Dill-line" seed & captured some synergy.

So the theory goes that growing a selfed/sibbed line in isolation for a while, then crossing it into another "different" genetic line can (supposedly) cause a synergy that we all seek to find.

Enough rambling. I don't know anywhere near as much about genetics as I've learned about history. LOL

Maybe someone who does have some genetics training or experience can enlighten us further.

10/13/2006 11:20:54 PM

Ohio

Wiz,alot of good answers on this thread. Another person you could contact is Mike Nepereny , he also has some excellent theorys on selfing.

Brooks

10/14/2006 12:13:25 AM

Mocksville, NC

Wiz you self a seed to knock off half its family tree setting it up for a cross to a bigger better color or size or weight of your choice or what you like in a pumpkin or SQ or if you only got 1 seed too!

10/14/2006 7:37:37 PM

President - GPC

Good Thread, So we cross our original female and male again, say a 845 bobier with the 898 Knauss.....Why do we not get another 1068? Say Paps does another......same dirt, same rare Rhode Island air, same grower.....why not another? Would be close right? I have seen the selfed 898's pretty close to the orig.

10/16/2006 2:04:20 PM

President - GPC

I read up on the genetics a bit from Langevins book and now understand why not another a bunch more. Still going to give it a try.

10/18/2006 12:20:04 PM

Eastern Pennsylvania

There is so much variability. You just have to make an educated decision about what to cross, and then convince people to plant your seeds, or be dedicated enough to grow them yourself, and then you need to get lucky. I bet you Pap would tell you that himself. Because, as we see, not even the remakes come out with equal results.
Jim

10/18/2006 12:50:05 PM

President - GPC

Jim,
In trying to obtain information on pumpkin genetics I dont really see a lot out there, So far the best has been Langevins book III. Yes, I remember Paps saying that plant a good genetics seed and get everyone in the a club to plant it and try it. I am going to keep looking for information on studies and am wanting to contact the likes of Nic Welty, Mike Nepereny, David Mangione of whom I have found mentioned in several web searches on cucurbit maximus genetics......Im just interested in learning more. At this point I think the Beachy farms would be the best place to hybridize a genetic line due to the need to plant mulitiples of the same seed to isolate a super genetic seed line for increased weights, however geographical growing location has a lot to do with it also.

10/18/2006 1:37:56 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Wiz, have read over and over, thru out the past couple or 3 years, round here...that seeds...from the same fruit...have high degree of variability...now take that variety, and square it...the difference in the seeds that grew the fruit X the difference in the seeds that grew the pollinator...the possibilities are endless!!!!!! Granted, proven seeds are proven seeds but...I have heard several times..."It's a crap shoot"!!!! Makes it a ton of fun!!!!!!!!! Peace, Wayne

10/19/2006 12:08:20 AM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

I'd be happy with a half ton of fun.

10/19/2006 3:06:19 PM

President - GPC

1503 for me

10/19/2006 3:27:00 PM

Follansbee, Wv

Here is my 1905 (1367.5 x self) from last year:

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=42032

Here is my 710 (1095 x self) from this year:

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=58787

The resemblence between the two fruit is remarkable. DutchBrad also grew the 1095 to maturity. His had a nicer color than mine, but the shape is unmistakable, very broad ribs with shallow seperation. If it maintains this shape, there will be very little potential of splitting in my opinion.
I will be selfing the 710 again next year. I hope to see that shape appear again. If it does, I will start looking for a suitable, unrelated cross to breed into it the following year. I also intend to cross the 1367.5 back into the line within the next year or two.
I don't hold to the theory of it being a complete crap shoot. Certain genetics will be passed on, the question is which ones? You should be able to expect similarities between selfed fruit and their ancestors. The key is selecting a seed whose ancestors express the traits your looking for consistantly. This gives you a better chance of getting what your looking for, be it shape, color, size, etc. If you get something completely different than what you expected, you should go back and look at the ancestors. Something back there has been passed down the line. I don't believe a fruit will suddenly express a trait that has never been expressed in that particular line before. The more you self a fruit with desirable traits, the more refined those particular genes should become.
Of course, I'm no genetics genius, just expressing my own personal opinion, and we all know the saying about opinions, and everybody having one.

10/31/2006 7:40:00 AM

Follansbee, Wv

Of course that should read 1095 (1367.5 x self)...1905 is still just a dream :)

10/31/2006 7:40:48 AM

President - GPC

MontyJ,
You are right, I selfed my Reiss and next year want to cross it with the 911 for big, orange and round. All 3 traits common with both. I too dont beleive it is a crap shoot, just a bit on thinkin......I like the big round orange......

10/31/2006 9:15:27 AM

Netherlands

One of the most interesting crosses I have seen (and a seed I have in my collection) is the 412 Joynson 05 est.

Here we go:
412 Joynson (805 Pukos 00 x 928 Joynson 03)
928 Joynson (805 Pukos 00 x 927 Haye 02)
927 Haye (805 Pukos 00 x 805 Pukos 00)

Now that's a lot of 805 Pukos. What I like about this one is the introduction of a new 805 Pukos into it each time.

10/31/2006 2:31:46 PM

Marengo, Ohio

What we need here is another 805 Pukos...I wish I had four of them to do this type of crossing!

-Gus

11/27/2006 9:56:26 AM