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That State Up North

What are the best seeds in the world? What is the best seed in the world? I firmly beleive that the best seed in the world is in your colection, and you will never plant it.
I decided to spend a little time poking around with some information, and made a couple rankings of the top seeds.
I feel it is very important to consider the number of recorded progeny when looking at this information because it gives some indication of how many chances a given seed has had at growing the big one. I know that the data is vastly incomplete, it is only what I found available.

Top 10 single largest fruit produced

1068 Wallace    48 progeny
1354 Checkon    13 progeny
582 Hester    30 progeny
998 Pukos    4 progeny
842 Eaton    59 progeny
1225 Jutrus    28 progeny
1097.5 Beachy    38 progeny
1104.5 Hester    16 progeny
783 Daletas    23 progeny
805 Pukos    66 progeny

top 10 based on top 10 average

seed ttave tt%hvy top wt
1068    1334.5 (3.22%)    48 progeny    1502
723    1276.44 (5.88)    101 progeny    1407
1370    1222.87 (-1.21) 43 progeny    1340
842     1206.35 (2.24%) 59 progeny    1446
805    1193    (8.52)    66 progeny    1373
845    1175    (4.03)    86 progeny    1337
1097.5    1169.9    (5.23)    38 progeny    1432
846    1148    (.12)    110 progeny    1192.5
1180    1122    (7.61)    34 progeny    1209
695    1121    (6.01)    38 progeny    1334.5

Top 10 most planted

846 Calai 110
723 Bobier 101
567.5 Mombert 88
845 Bobier 86
801.5 Stelts 77
935 Lloyd 66
805 Pukos 66
842 Eaton 59
1006 Greer 53
898 Knauss 49
1068 Wallace 48

11/16/2006 10:49:41 PM

That State Up North

should read

Top 10 single largest fruit produced

1068 Wallace 48 progeny
1354 Checkon 13 progeny
582 Hester 30 progeny
998 Pukos 4 progeny
842 Eaton 59 progeny
1225 Jutrus 28 progeny
1097.5 Beachy 38 progeny
1104.5 Hester 16 progeny
723 Bobier 101 progeny
783 Daletas 23 progeny
805 Pukos 66 progeny


The question is are the 1354 Checkon, 998 Pukos, 1104.5 Hester seeds with great potential that just haven't been planted heavily enough in the top growers patches? Or have they done so poorly when tried that their offspring weren't recorded? Should some of these heavy producing seeds that have not been heavily planted given a better chance?
How much does genetics play a role in what the top seed in the world is? How much does how often a seed gets planted play a role? Or, where the seed gets planted?

Just playing the skeptic for the sake of interesting discussion. There may be errors in this data, but I was just pondering some things and poking numbers around.


Nic Welty

11/16/2006 10:57:10 PM

Eugene,OR

I'm amazed at how so many of the biggest ever grown (and new state records) have been grown on a growers "own seed." 1502 Wallace...grown by on the 1068 Wallace by Wallace, 1469 Chceckon...grown on the 1354 Checkon by Chackon, 1446 Eaton...grown on the 842 Eaton by Eaton, 1281 Miller (new California state record)...grown on a 931 Miller by Miller...and so on.

11/17/2006 12:13:24 AM

Salmon Arm, BC

Thanks Nic..this helps a lot and I think vineman is on to something here.

11/17/2006 3:43:50 AM

Rhode Island

nic
interesting article and research.theres no question that many times a grower has great seeds in his or her own collection but will never use them.

its kinda like a rookie ball player who never gets a shot to play. then, one day his big chance comes and he plays so great he subplants the starter.

unfortunately we pumpkin growers are just like those baseball managers. we want to field a team of veteran proven players, then possibly sprinkle in a rookie or two as space allows.
besides, the average grower does not want to waste a season testing seeds that are unproven. if they can get their hands on ones that have already proved to be good producers they will go with it.

i believe the reason a great seed stock grows great back in its own patch is simple.its growing back in the same soil and weather conditions it was developed in.
so, if your soil in canada for instance was the same makeup and had a very simular soil test resultas the wallaces? chances are then if both seeds have the same cell in them you would both have simular results

just my opinion quite possibly thats why so many of us are interested in each others soil test results.

pap

pap

11/17/2006 8:04:27 AM

President - GPC

Great #'s all, This will take some thought

11/17/2006 8:53:25 AM

Netherlands

And the top ten progeny and top five progeny combined by ranking:

1. 1068 Wallace
2. 723 Bobier
3. 842 Eaton
3. 1370 Rose
5. 805 Pukos
6. 845 Bobier
7. 1097.5 Beachy
8. 695 Handy
9. 846 Calai
10. 1016 Daletas

11/17/2006 8:55:44 AM

Netherlands

I think a grower tends to favour his/her own seed. When I plant one of my seeds beside a great proven seed as a backup, I secretly hope the great seed will not germinate or something.

11/17/2006 8:59:08 AM

Ohio

Your right Brad, and Pap. I planted two 845 Bobiers this year and planted my 763 seed as back up to one of the 845's, I never would have grown that 763 out had it not been for the 845 Bobier not throwing a vine out. So my 763 would have never been planted if the 845 didnt make it. It ended up being my best and biggest growing pumpkin of this year(Which isnt saying much) in clay so hard that I couldnt bury the vines, the ground was that hard, not a single vine burried. So the 763 Rookie gets to play in the world series again next year. Its funny that My OWN seed was the biggest pumpkin I grew this year verses the great seeds I planted in half way decent soil.

I think by this time next year Nick, the 1068 Wallace is going to be smoking everything by a mile on the charts.

11/17/2006 11:11:33 AM

Pumpkintown, SC

Maybe we're looking at this all wrong. Maybe we need to start at the opposite end and eliminate the seeds that have "proven" to not perform and grow any of the rest, lol. BF

11/17/2006 11:40:59 AM

Netherlands

BF, skip the lol, I think you have made a good point.

11/17/2006 12:52:00 PM

Rhode Island

one thing i am certain of.
had it not been for a site like big pumpkins . com none of us would have the exposure to new methods, other growers, and of course seed trades,etc.

back in the day of the dinopumpkin growers you depended a lot on newsletters and word of mouth. then, if you wanted an address you better have had a good phone or a large mailing list.
all hail the computer
pap

11/17/2006 1:24:39 PM

Utah

Question
You can plant any of the seeds listed below. You have room to plant only 1 of them – which one do you plant and why?
Next question- you have room to plant 2 of them and cross them- which one do you plant, what crosses do you make and why?
Next question- you have room to plant 4 of them and cross them- which one do you plant, what crosses do you make and why?

Below is data to help you make your choice.

1104 Hester 03 (898 Knauss 01 x 845 Bobier 00) +20.7%
Male pollinator grew the: n/a

Fruit off the 1104 Hester 03:
1420.5 LaRue 05 (1104.5 Hester 03 x 1180 Daletas 03) +0.9%
1225 Wykcoff 05 (1104.5 Hester 03 x 1279.5 Wykcoff 03) -1.1%
1081 Wentzell 05 (1104.5 Hester 03 x 845 Bobier 00) -5.1%
1045.5 Daletas 05 (1104.5 Hester 03 x 898 Knauss 01) +13.3%
1017.5 LaRue 05 (1104.5 Hester 03 x 1247 Handy 03) +11.2%
1001 Swarts 05 (1104.5 Hester 03 x Self) +4.1%
0 between 900-999
5 between 800-899
2 between 700-799
1 between 600-699, 1 dmg
3 between 500-599
6 of 17 over 1000+ lb or 35% over 1000 + lb
1 of 17 dmg for 5.9%

11/17/2006 3:08:46 PM

Utah

Fruit off the 1420.5 LaRue 05 (1104.5 Hester 03 x 1180 Daletas 03):
(male pollinator grew the 1205 LaRue 05, +6.7%)
1332 Werner 05 (1420.5 LaRue 04 x 1180 Daletas 03) +1.5%
1191.5 Werner 05 (1420.5 LaRue 04 x 998 Werner 04) +2.6%
1112 Marsh 06 dmg (1420.5 LaRue 04 x 670 Daigle 03) +2.4%
1102 Sperry 05 (1420.5 LaRue 04 x 1253 Sperry 04) n/a
1083 Martin 05 (1420.5 LaRue 04 x 1446 Eaton 04) +5.5%
1072 Girard 05 (1420.5 LaRue 04 x 1446 Eaton 04) +5.5%
998.6 Pukos 05 (1420.5 LaRue 04 x 1446 Eaton 04) -5.8%
990 Swarts 05 (1420.5 LaRue 04 x 1104 Hester 03) +0.4%
974.5 Bhaskaran 06 (1420.5 LaRue 04 x 781 Frantz) +3.9%
967 Reid 06 dmg (1420.5 LaRue 04 x 1370 Rose 03) -9.5%
910.5 Swarts dmg (1420.5 LaRue 04 x 1458 Whitter 03) +11.2%
908 Sach 05 (1420.5 LaRue 04 x 844 Wykcoff 01) -11.6%
904 Colbert 05 (1420.5 LaRue 04 x 1446 Eaton 04)+3.1%
7 between 800-899
6 between 700-799, 2 dmg
0 between 600-699
4 between 500-599, 1 dmg
6 of 30 over 1000+ lb for 20% over 1000+ lb
6 of 30 dmg for 20% dmg

Fruit off the 1332 Werner 05 (1420.5 LaRue 04 x 1180 Daletas 03):
1058 Whittier 06 (1332 Werner 05 x 1231 Pukos 05) +10.1%
1008 Werner 06 (1332 Werner 05 x 968 Razo 04) +0.2%
738 Swarts 06 (1332 Werner 05 x 1180 Daletas 03) -1.7%
649 Reinsvold 06 (1332 Werner 05 x Self) -6.9%
2 of 4 over 1000+ for 50% over 1000+
0 of 4 dmg for 0% dmg

1191.5 Werner 06:
Male pollinator grew the ? (1005.9 Werner 06? or 895 Werner 06?)

1112 Marsh 06 dmg
Male pollinator grew the 954 Marsh 06 dmg

Fruit off the 1102 Sperry 05:
(male pollinator grew the 687 Sperry 05)
none

11/17/2006 3:09:34 PM

Utah

Fruit off the 1083 Martin 05 (1420.5 LaRue 04 x 1446 Eaton 04):
758 Martin 06 (1083 Martin 05 x multiple)
688.5 Blaziek 06 (1083 Martin 05 x 1333 Connelly 05)
0 of 2 over 1000+ lb for 0% over 1000+ lb
0 of 2 dmg for 0% dmg

Fruit off the 1072 Girard 05:
873 Marsland 06* (1072 Girard 05 x 9797.5 Marsland 05)

Fruit off the 998.6 Pukos 05 (1420 LaRue 04 x 1446 Eaton 04):
1446 Werner 06 (998.6 Pukos 05 x 1068 Wallace 03) -1.5%
1002 Paton 06 (998.6 Pukos 05 x 1097.5 Beachy 02) -2.4%
662 Spearing 06 (998.6 Pukos x 1231 Pukos 05) -3.6%
623 Kelly 06 (998.6 Pukos x 1231 Pukos 05) +15.6%
2 of 4 fruit over 1000+ lb for 50% over 1000+ lb
0 of 4 dmg for 0% dmg

Fruit off the 1225 Wykcoff 05 (1104.5 Hester 03 x 1279.5 Wykcoff 03:
(male pollinator grew the 1139.5 Wykcoff 05, -6.7%)
none

Fruit off the 1081 Wentzell 05 (1104.5 Hester 03 x 845 Bobier 00):
none

Fruit off the 1045.5 Daletas 05 (1104.5 Hester 03 x 898 Knauss 01):
(male pollinator grew the 1075.5 Daletas 05, +7.4%)
None

Fruit off the 1017.5 LaRue 05 (1104.5 Hester 03 x 1247 Handy 03):
(male pollinator grew the 1010.5 LaRue 05, +19.3%)
1010 Teeter 06 (1017.5 LaRue 05 x 1075.5 Daletas 05) n/a
1 of 1 fruit over 1000+ lb for 100% over 1000+ lb
0 of 1 dmg for 0% dmg

Fruit off the 1001 Swarts 05 (1104.5 Hester 03 x Self):
none

11/17/2006 3:09:42 PM

Long Island,New York

Nic...here's your homework and some points:
Apply the "knowledge curve" to the results....first year grower planting seed "A" vs second or third or 14th year grower planting seed "A".
Apply the "patch curve" also...second season soil vs first vs 3rd year.....don't forget to add the fungus buildup variable to the 2nd year and older soils but not to the patches that senior growers with a heavy knowledge curve in thier first year with a new patch done just right....ie Wallace, Rose, etc.
Apply the "Internet Access" factor....probably overlaps the "knowledge curve" to a certain extent.
Add the "seed source handicap"....beginners and those who we're not likely to see results from might (I say might) be altering the story significantly.. would seeds purchased from Holland,PandP,Beachy, or Dill have the same rate of success (all things considered) with seeds recieved from growers here ? Here you have a built in guidence system and dare I say a clientel who researched enough to find the info and put his/her ego aside to ask a complete stranger for something for free (shows a little commitment there)
(yes, I know...confusing and perhaps controversial but its winter...bring it on.)
The biggest real curve is probably just "the modern growing practice and materials available curve". The WR goes up every year...I see Rose and others growing the same seed and it keeps going up and up...perhaps a 946.5Geertz grown in 2006 might be 1500 also?.....

11/17/2006 3:11:29 PM

Pumpkintown, SC

G, I don't know about all that mumbo jumbo leading up to your final thought...but yeah, I agree. The 946.5 Geertz is a great example of a seed I have no doubt could be the next WR in the right hands, in the right location, with the right luck. A seed that has literally been all but forgotten. One of the all too many. Of course, you know me and my seed selections, hah. BF

11/17/2006 7:13:03 PM

Ohio

G, you made good sense there, its something I never really put to thought. You got to be the smartest guy I know,,ok maybe not. LOL.
My weights went up every year in my patch where I used to live, this year I moved and started a new patch in the spring and went back down on my weights,so your theory makes alot of sense G.

Brooks

Brooks

11/17/2006 7:50:29 PM

Eddyz@efirehose.net

That's why G is my Hero

11/17/2006 8:00:28 PM

President - GPC

11/17/2006 9:00:16 PM

New Castle, Pa.

Nic

I'm going into my second year of growing AGs. I got off to a decent start with two 600 plus pounders this year.Being relativly new my seed collection is very limited. Nothing would make me happier than to help you prove your theory. I will gladly find a place in my patch for a seed in your collection which you feel has great potential but is yet unproven. E Mail me.

Tim

11/17/2006 11:10:48 PM

Netherlands

Gordon, that's an impressive lot of stats. They do not include many of the European pumpkins grown. The 1420 for example had several big ones over here (that split) and were never entered into a database. The split percentage on the 1420 is quite a bit higher than 20%.

The 998 Pukos also produced over 1000 lbs in Belgium at least once.

11/18/2006 3:50:53 AM

Netherlands

If I were to pick from the whole list Gordon, I would go for the 998. It seems to have the growing power that the 1420 has (aided by the 1446) and although it has not been planted too often seems to split less than the 1420.

My second choice would be the 1231 Pukos (I know it wasn't an option) and cross it with the 998. The 1231 is the reverse cross of the 998 and grew o.a. the 1346 Pitura 06.

11/18/2006 3:59:04 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

IOn the perfect world every grower would account for every seed grown & summarize the results after the season ends. But the truth is we only hear about the good ones.

Maybe a new thread entitle "Fate of Seeds" is in order.

Example:

20 fail to germinate
15 get broken in the first 5 days (cot, grower, kids, pet, etc)
20 are killed by grower in the next 4 weeks (trip, wind, etc)
20 suffer insect or disease DQ (too sickly to matter)
20 set fruit late (rain, heat, disease, environmet)
5 make it on a scale
100 seeds

But one of the 5 was weighed at Circleville (non-GPC) & two were grown in Europe (Probably non-GPC) & another was grown by an AGGC antagonist so we only find out about 1 of them. What oif one got DQed at the weighoff because the lifting party damaged it but it get's entered as EXH because the grower wants a scale slip? DMG or UOW might have been better but the world suspects it forever.

The fate of seeds is an interesting turn of events that make judging their potential quality a real toss of the dice.

11/18/2006 8:49:29 AM

Pumpkintown, SC

...not to even mention how some growers "market" their seeds. P. T. Barnum has nothing on them...

11/18/2006 12:13:40 PM

Lexington, Ky

Excellent point Oil! Seed Mafia!

11/18/2006 8:15:49 PM

Puyallup, WA

We'er taking off the gloves now!!

11/18/2006 11:45:42 PM

Deer Park WA

Tremor, if you take the plunge you either know how to swim sink to the bottom or dog paddle up to the top! The best seeds in the world are probably beneath your feet brother, like my hero pap said " I believe the reason a great seed stock grows great back in its own patch is simple. Its growing back in the same soil and weather conditions it was developed in. So, if your soil in canada for instance was the same makeup and had a very simular soil test result as the wallaces? chances are then if both seeds have the same cell in them you would both have simular results" Something like, that anyway I think that for the next few years we will only grow our own seeds with an intermitant straggler (PaP) thrown in the corner just to see how they do.

11/26/2006 11:56:36 PM

Ltb

2009 wallace 1725 harp

7/15/2014 6:07:35 PM