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New Hampshire

I firmly believe that the best seed in the world is in your collection, and you will never plant it. Quote - Nick Welty

I can not agree with you more! Being scientific in my orientation I find the mania of seeking "Hot" seeds more of a popularity game than science. I myself over the years have given to several clubs seeds for their auctions. I usually find myself looking for name recognition rather than genetics. As a culture we are more in tune with the packaging and promotion of a product rather than product itself. I see this trend in the church in which we think we need to sell God to a consumer-oriented culture. This has not escaped the Giant Pumpkin community.
Don’t get me wrong, if I had my hands on many of these seed I would plant them. A seed that has produced a 1500# sound pumpkin has proven with out a doubt it’s worthiness to be married with earth. But that “Joe Blow” seed with equal or greater potential will never see the right soil because of pumpkin politics.
I agree with many, that the real thing the data is showing us, is that we need to be planting are own seed stock. I am convinced that the curve of data is pointing in that direction. I am also equally convinced that good balanced soil and good growers prove seeds not good seeds prove growers. There are always exceptions in the chances of genetics but if enough good growers plant a good seed it will get a reputation.
I know I get on this soapbox every year at this time. I think it is important that you growers with the bucks to fork out the $ at the auction to promote these worthy clubs but lets not distort the reality that a big name growers name next to a seed gives it better genetics.
Thank You I feel better. Jim

11/17/2006 10:40:16 PM

New Hampshire

Correction- does NOT give it better genetics.

11/17/2006 10:43:32 PM

Amen,,

11/18/2006 12:15:58 AM

Indiana

I disagree with the "we need to be planting are own seed stock" coment as far as the purpose it serves in your post. The grower planted the seed in all cases because they believed in them, the parents behind them, and the genetics within. They saw the characteristics first hand, and knew what they were after. Dont get me wrong, I am all for planting my own stocks, but its not because they are my stocks, its because I select from what I think are the best out of X number of plants.

Its those outliers that really stand out such as Andy Wolf's 1407, or Steve Zuhlke's 1302. Somehow those genes from the 723 and 1370 respectively should be isolated. I could rattle off on this also like Jim.

I almost completely agree with what Jim is saying otherwise.

11/18/2006 12:34:31 AM

Colo.Spgs.CO. Pikes Peak Chapter @ spacemaster400@earthlink.net

Jeez I hope I was not the one who stirred the pot on the post I did here http://www.bigpumpkins.com/msgboard/ViewThread.asp?b=1&p=179078
on the seed exchange post board but the last two posts on this board are of basically the same subject. I have for years been trying to see the light on this subject as seeds get proven more from selected seed stocks than others. An input of experienced and knowlegable opinions is greatly appreciated and the more the better. Thank You for all the input and keep on posting all......JK

11/18/2006 3:09:03 AM

New Hampshire

Tom, True, Many of my own crosses I have made over the years I think should not be planted in my patch or any bodies else's patch ( but, who knows even about those seeds unless they get planted). Yes, a grower knows what he or she has seen in the parents in his own patch but that does not always add up to 1+1. What I have seen over the years is our seeds seem to throw heavier pumpkins than the proven ones I plant in our patch here in New Hampshire. Last four years WR on personal seed Stock. My 2 heaviest pumpkins this year out of 20 plants, Personal seed stock. No, I don't treat my "kids" different than other seeds.

Take the 1068, 9 out of 10 of the heaviest pumpkin grown from that seed has been grown locally(the argument accurately should be "grow locally seed not just personal seed") . 5 of those 10 are from the Wallce's themselves.Of all the good growers that grew the 1068, 9 out of 10 has been local( yes, I know there was a hugh one in Canada that never hit the scales). These number SCREAM for scientific observation. Yes, the 1068 has To have the "Goods" in those genes but why do they do better( statistically) close to home?

11/18/2006 6:00:34 AM

Rhode Island

id be very curious to see what the results would be if you planted the same seed, in soil with the same if, not simular, major and minor nutrient levels, ph, and spray program, in various parts of the usa and canada.

if all those things were considered equal and you had an average summer id think the results could be equal as well.

yes the seed in my opinion is one key. the second and biggest consideration is soil and plant management.
the best seed in the world will not grow correctly in inferior soil

pap

11/18/2006 7:24:50 AM

Trumbull, CT 06611, USA

If we really want this to work, we all need to open our books. Like Dick said, we all need to have the same soil structure, spray program or close to similar conditions to see what seeds are "the best". I have to agree with Jim on the localized seed theory. The numbers are convincing.

11/18/2006 9:54:32 AM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

If you're hinting that the seeds adapt to local climates/soil, in such a short period of time, I'm not sure I buy it. I remember someone hinting at the same thing on a tomato forum(about tomatoes adapting to where their grown). Someone viewed by many as somewhat of a tomato expert, was of the opinion that it would take many years for a seed strain to adapt to a particular growing region. Maybe this "expert" was wrong, or maybe comparing A.G.s to tomatoes is wrong. Is there any evidence that plants can adapt so quickly?

11/18/2006 2:07:36 PM

That State Up North

So many interesting things to comment on, and I will come back to discuss this more.
For now, a quick comment from what Dick and Jim said.
There are many things screaming for scientific observation. There are many factors contributing to the variation in fruit weights (yes Glen I will work up a mathamatical model for you someday to account for everything so that we can truely equalize and compare only genetics).
Dick, to compare environment would be one major factor, it would also be interesting to compare soils, spray programs ect. One great way to begin making some comparisons is in planting clones. This is the only way you can gaurantee consistent genetics each time, every seed stock has variability for giant pumpkins. If a good clone was produced, (and I think we need to clone, and distribute clones grafted onto new rootstock) an agreed cooperation of growers is necessary to coordinate a continent (or world) wide experiment. The key is having enough people participate, control their methods, and report complete information. With that done, some time using statistics, and we could learn many many things.
Preliminary data could be assembled to give us some indication of how many replicates are needed for such an experiment.
Assuming the two most widely planted seeds in 2006 were the 1370 Rose, and 1068 Wallace, if every grower who planted either of those two seeds could report their soil test, location, and spray program, a first line of comparison could be done.

thats all for now

11/18/2006 2:08:26 PM

That State Up North

Doug
You are absolutely correct adaptation to an environment is clearly not what we are seeing here, it takes many many many more generations. I beleive that what we see are simply a selection of a seed which matches well to an environment, and is then used more heavily, but also grown with more confidence. By that, when a grower goes out to the patch, the first plant they check is the prize most promising plant, and that is the one they have confidence in. That may be a proven seed stock, it may be their own they have high hopes for, or a local seed that was given directly to them by a friend.
The major environment to genetic interaction is due to specific seeds tolerating or prefering hot or cold climates diferently. That is the primary basis for some seed lines having regional success and faliure in other regions. That is my opinion because we control moisture level, and the idea of seed selection to match more preferentialy to different soil types is a much more complicated topic. So I simplify the environment to a temperature factor (but someday maybe light level could be added to the model).

thats really all for now, must go work quick before the big game


go bucks

11/18/2006 2:15:30 PM

New Hampshire

Doug, I don't know what I am hinting at but it is definitely a observation that has one wondering. I have probably more questions about growing AG than I do answers.

11/18/2006 2:53:40 PM

Trumbull, CT 06611, USA

In my opinion, Nic And Tom B know more about genetics than most of us will ever know (I know there are others here too...).

Maybe we all need to give up 1 spot in our patches and try an experiment based off of what these and others think we should be doing. I would be willing to participate in any experiment that tries to get these things to grow bigger. Maybe this is how we get to the 2,000 lb mark. Just my 2 cents.

11/18/2006 3:03:15 PM

West By God Virginia

I'm not so sure about throwing out the idea that AG's can adapt to thier enviornment quicker than other plants. Almost no other plant grows as fast, no other plant produces as big a fruit, and no other plant gains the vegetative weight as quickly. I would think it's ability to adapt to enviornment more quickly than other plants wouldn't be that difficult to believe. No other plant than AG's are grown from saved seeds from a hybrid and crossed with unstabilized hybrids. Just my opinion.

11/18/2006 3:49:13 PM

President - GPC

All good stuff here and location plays a big part, just in analysing my Colorado alkaline clay soil would play a part, our dirt just isnt like the dirt back east. It would be intersting to see how this plays out...altitude and all. I volunteer to assist with the study with a plant in a nursery patch to compare, take notes and all, I would think that different soil types would make comparsions very hard though....even from that patch to my own at home....but after reading all this great info Im kinda of bumbed cuz I realize that my money is better spent on improving my soil or dang near replacing it which is crazy.....

11/18/2006 4:28:07 PM

Eastern Pennsylvania

Anyone who has ever opened a textbook on the subject knows that it would take thousands of generations of naturally grown plants before even the most minor physiological changes or adaptations could be detected. In my opinion our pumpkin seeds will never "adapt" to their environment because in reality adaptation is nothing more than the organism's ability to produce viable seed that germinates and then then has progeny that produces viable seed and so on. No real changes should occur other than those produced by crossing seeds displaying particular phenotypes because we are in control of the seed stock, it is not created and dispersed in the way that mother nature would do it.

11/18/2006 5:56:23 PM

Puyallup, WA

Me thinks that mankind knows less about plant adaptation than we let on.

11/19/2006 12:07:56 AM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

Jim,
An observant grower can learn much. Thanks for sharing your observations. You're a much more experienced and accomplished at growing these things than myself. The offseason is a great time to discuss these topics. Best wishes on your move by the way.

11/19/2006 12:45:44 AM

Eastern Pennsylvania

LOL Doug you kicked the crap outta me by 300lbs this year with that awesome pumpkin on the 1233! I just talk like a know it all sometimes, sorry! Most of my knowledge comes from school, not from the patch. The other guys on this thread- that is experience.

Thanks also, the new house is spectacular and the neighbors are very interested in seeing the giant pumpkins grow (yes that is one of the first things I brought up with them). Jim

11/19/2006 10:33:52 AM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

Ooops I was referring to Jim(bears). I should have been more specific LOL.
Jim(Orangeneck),
I hope you enjoy your new house buddy. Hopefully you've got good pumpkin soil. I hope you get the seed(s) you're after. You'r input is valued as well. Best wishes!

11/19/2006 12:31:12 PM

Southeast

Darwin would have much to say about one or two generation environmental adaptations.

11/19/2006 1:07:59 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Some of Darwin's evolutionary theories are false. The Galapagos Fiches haven't changed to the extent he claimed they would. We like to think that a species evolves to adapt to it's environment. Uh huh....rather it is simply a matter of survival of the fittest. Those that suck die. Those that don't live to breed.

Likewise we select for mother nature those seed stocks that best represent our goals. Hence we are essentially killing those stocks that don't meet our goals.

In doing so we are speeding up "evolution" by a huge factor. We're also making informed decisions about what traits we want to see in a seed stock so we make these introductions (IE percent heavy, color, shape, etc).

This past decade, the US Postal Service, the WWW & lower cost digital cameras have done more for pumpkin "evolution" than mother nature has. We've shaved thousands of years of "evolutionary time" off the clock.

That aside, plant a 1068 in a Fusarium contaminated patch & it won't grow a state record let alone a world record.

If it were just genetics, Ronny would have several World records under his belt. It took a 1068 & a brand new patch combined with years of growing experience & an extreme level of discipline to grow the 1502. Take any one of those factors & the results go away too.

11/19/2006 2:29:28 PM

Pumpkintown, SC

Shoot, plant a 1068 with the best of everything, but plant it outside of the "Pumpkin-Belt", it too becomes just another forgotten seed. Who knew mother nature was a snowbird, BF

11/19/2006 3:05:16 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Which is more responsible? Genetics or cultural practices?

From 1976-1986 weight increased from 451 to 671 or 220 lbs.
From 1986-1996 weights increased from 671 to 1061 or 390 lbs.
From 1996-2006 weights increased from 1061 to 1502 or 441 lbs.

11/19/2006 3:46:33 PM

Pumpkintown, SC

Both, simply applied by more growers with more availability to more knowledge.

11/19/2006 4:34:12 PM

Pumpkintown, SC

My "leading" question is, how many WR fruit or seeds have come from outside the "Pumpkin-belt?

11/19/2006 4:38:48 PM

Eastern Pennsylvania

Snake, doesn't this new question lead us back down the same road? For instance, during most of the 2006 season I didn't really know anyone else who even planted a AG pumpkin seed in Maryland. There's just no grower support to generate a WR in the areas outside the orange-belt. That doesn't mean potential world record seeds arn't being produced though.

Doug// Jim (bears) strange coincidence lol just moved in last week we'll see what the soil test says.

11/19/2006 7:45:39 PM