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Austria

I'm new to your site and came across an auction here earlier where, what I believe was a single seed(known by the number 1068, weight I believe) sold for $850. My question, which no one was able to give me an answer that made any sense, is: What is the cross of this seed? Some said it was not a self. Others said it was sort of a cross? Huh? From what I understand this seed is of the variety, Atlantic Giant. I also believe it was hand pollinated with another Atlantic Giant. Where I come from, this in known as a controlled self-pollination. Another person in the chatroom said I was over simplifying things. Either I'm missing something here, or, it IS that simple. Isn't it? Can someone with some true knowledge on this subject point me in the right direction. True, I'm new to your site, but I do know my way around plant breeding, or at least I thought I did until logging onto your site, lol. This is what has led me to your site in the first place. Lol, first day here and I feel I'm back in grammer school. Can someone with some knowledge here, please educate me, again. Lol. Thanks, Greg

11/19/2006 11:26:16 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Greg,

The 1068 Wallace '03 (845 Bobier '00 OUW x 898 Knauss '01)

Ron Wallace grew this pumpkin to 1068 lbs in 2003. The fruit was grown on a plant started from the 845 Bobier which was a HOT seed at that time having grown the world record, etc.

It is a cross in that he pollinated the 845 with the 898 Knauss. This same cross has been made by other growers too but so far none are receiving anywhere near as much attention.

Ronny grew his 1068 to a New World Record this year (1502 lbs) hence the last few 1068 seeds are selling at auction for new all time high prices.

11/19/2006 11:50:40 PM

Austria

Thank you Mr Tremor for your response. I'm understanding what you are saying about why seed prices go up. However, what still doesn't make sense is that from what you are saying, this seed IS from a self pollinated Atlantic Giant. Genetically speaking we are talking about a self. Atlantic Giant x something else would be a cross. The genetics says self, just like any other Atlantic Giant x Atlantic Giant. They would all have the same level of "HOT" as you say, Greg

11/20/2006 12:19:45 AM

Pleasant Hill, Or

Mendelsome. I belive the confusion came from the 1450 Wallace. It too was grown from a 1068 Wallace, and pollinated with another 1068 Wallace (the 1068 that produced the 1502).
By you saying "isn't that just selfing?" really the answer is no. A.G.'s have been bred specifically for different traits and characteristics, to cross one with another is introducing and mixing other traits, etc. in to that line. Each line is like it's own sub-species.
To keep all of this trackable, the system of a fruits weight and the growers name is attached to the fruit. (1068 # fruit grown by Ron Wallace).
The term "selfed" is strictly used when one A.G. is used to pollinate itself. "Sibbed" is used when one A.G. is used to pollinate another of the same (1068 plant A x 1068 plant B). "Pollinated" or "crossed" and a handful of other names is used when one A.G. is crossed to another (845 Bobier x 898 Knauss) to try to produce a synergistic effect on the seeds, like the 1068 Wallace, which produces the biggest pumpkins of all time.
You don't have to go back to grammar school to figure out what pumpkin growers are doing, it's more of a parallel universe!

11/20/2006 12:23:35 AM

Cincinnati,OH

All the seeds sold on the auction were C. Maxima. Variety Atlantic Giant.
All of the seeds are selfs within the variety Atlantic Giant.
Certain seeds from specimens display different charateristics . Specimens are labeled by weight first and grower name second thereby becoming a named specimen.
So the seed sold was C. Maxima , Atlantic Giant, 1068 Wallace. So we are crossing or selfing specimens not varieties.

11/20/2006 12:27:29 AM

Leamington, Ont.

If they were all considered 'selfed' then every seed would be a surprise :(

Doh, i was hoping for an orange one, oh well, maybe next years... LOL

11/20/2006 12:45:52 AM

Austria

Ok, I'm gaining a little more insight into your world, all-be-it a parallel universe, although I am still hearing conflicting stories. If I can put this all together, what you guys are doing IS in fact selfing these fruit within the Atlantic Giant variety. You are catagorizing each fruit by individual phenotypical information and assigning them the growers name and dates. You trade these seeds based on which growers grow the largest, though, being all Atlantic Giant variety, the seeds have the same actual growth potential but all have differing characteristics. This provides an even playing field(growing conditions not with-standing), with some phenotypes looked upon as being worth more than others.
What you guys are not doing is actual cross pollinations for a specific genotypical variation leading to larger F1s? Is this accurate? Greg

11/20/2006 2:14:20 AM

Hampshire, UK

Greg, Nothing round here is about creating an even playing field..... just growing the biggest C. maxima. If there were other pumpkin varieties which were as big as Atlantic Giant, then they would be used. The key point about a collection of 1068 seeds or any other named seeds is that they are siblings with the same parents. Just like human siblings, seeds from a 1068, or any other fruit, have variability.

11/20/2006 2:33:12 AM

Long Island,New York

Ok Meddlesome....consider these points and fit them into what you learned today wherever you seem fit....
1-We growers of the big are wierd and do things our own way....perhaps not exactly along the lines or terminology you scientists are used to but I bet you never saw a 1500plus pound Atlantic Giant before.
2- We take everything one step (at least) further than the standard breeders do which may seem odd and non-scientific but how can you argue with our success?
3- Are you as incredulous with horse breeders that pay tons of money for super-sperm and thousands for ponies bred from superstars? Would they be considered self pollinations...lol.
4- They don't all have the same actual growth potential in our opinions. Put a few in the ground yourself...thats the best way to see for yourself. Quality seeds of superior genetics are usually available for free (if you're nice) until they have a history of growing something unusually large...then the $ goes up as availability and success dictate.
5- It was a club sponsored auction to raise funds for the wieghoffs and educational/club biz expenses...sort-of like when you buy a box of cookies from the girl scouts for twice the value...it goes to a good cause.

11/20/2006 4:45:40 PM

That State Up North

The definition of a self pollination is to be pollinated by the exact genetic makeup, ie either the same plant the female flower was on, or a clone of that plant.
A hybrid is any cross between two plants of differing genotype.
Two seperate seeds are not clones of eachother (unless synthetic seeds). Even in some feilds breeders will asume that crosses between seperate plants in a very homozygous population are actualy selfs, this is not technicaly correct terminology.
The Atlantic Giant as it has been named is a largely heterozygous population of c. maxima loosly grouped for having above normal fruit size.
The 1068 is a hybrid between two geneticaly different plants.
All crosses between two seperate plants are hybrid crosses.
Heterosis (hybrid vigor) may or may not be associated with any hybrid cross.

The key to advancement of any population is in selection. What value can be placed on selecting the absolute best of the best? In the world of giant pumpkin growing it apears to be currently at $850 (minus the cheritable inflation) or postage to ask a charitable grower if you can guess which is best before being planted.



Nic Welty

11/20/2006 9:45:55 PM

Niagara County, NY

"someone with some true knowledge", huh? i was one of the guys trying to explain this to you the first time after the auction Mendelsome..... your welcome, anytime.

dan

11/21/2006 3:17:50 AM

Napa Valley, CA

Greg - The information listed above are accurate replies from 8 experienced growers.
Thinking outside the box can be a rejuvenating experience.

11/22/2006 1:29:04 AM

President - GPC

This should really have the potential to be another "advanced" How to genetics book that I would certainly buy and read about 10 times till I understood...and applied it...serious thought should be considered to gleam the genetic information from many of those "enhanced growers" which will assist in getting us newbies/heavy hitter wannabies to the next level....

12/1/2006 9:57:28 AM