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Lloydminster/AB

The correct way to breed a consistent seed stock would be to have 15 to 20 people agree to grow the same seed stock and all agree to self the fruit, then select from all the fruit grown a couple at most new seed stocks that have the characteristics that best resemble the parent. The same growers then grow from only the selected seed stock and so on until all fruit are consistent. Just selfing and growing one each separately and without a co-operative effort wouldn't work because of the infinite variability of a selfed fruit. Sure a person might get lucky but you can't count on luck. How do you know that your (insert favorite seed here) was THE one? All seeds from an individual fruit segregate according to the laws of Mendelian genetics unfortunately we have not been able to ascertain the the dominant , co-dominant or recessive genes, therefore the number of plants that must be grown to have at least one have the desired characteristics is unknown.
We kind of do this already by selecting seeds from each other that we then grow the next season.

Now while we are doing this someone somewhere is crossing two big ones and hiding in the resulting seed stock maybe only one seed that will pass on it's genes to the one ton fruit . That person is also selecting from seed stocks but for slightly different reasons. That is why weights keep on increasing .It is the constant selection of seeds for weight.

Because of the law of segregation a remake of cross that is is exactly the same is unlikely, however it is obvious that some seed stocks breed truer(935,801,846 for example) than others and remakes involving such seed stocks enjoy some success. That doesn't mean you shouldn't try ,just that the results might be different and who knows may be the remake might be better!

Now get out there and make the next great seed stock ……selfed or crossed doesn't matter as long as we get to one ton!

1/3/2007 5:40:44 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

This is kind of running along the lines of needing about 15 seeds of a population to find one in the top 5% of that population. The problem would then be, how could we possibly factor out the difference that each grower brings in care of the plant/fruit? At the very least, such a project would need to happen where one "unbiased judge" could see each plant/fruit in person and personally, subjectively, determine which is the best to continue with...

My point in the other thread is more along the lines of the F1 -> F2 -> F1 theory put forth by Nic Welty and others. It also seems that this pattern has produced some results in the past.

In your opinion, is it feasible and practical to put together a cooperative effort for breeding seeds with a firm plan for where we want to go? (There are no guarantees that we'll get there, of course.)

1/3/2007 8:08:17 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

I should add... if we're breeding strictly for weight (size, thickness, etc.) then what we're doing is already working. In fact you'd be hard-pressed to find a project like it anywhere else in the history of the world.

But......... if we want to create a line that is both heavy and RED-ORANGE, that would be the actual purpose of a cooperative effort like we're pondering.

1/3/2007 8:16:22 PM

Lloydminster/AB

I think you see my point as I intended it,and I think this type of breeding program though interesting would be difficult for the reasons mentioned. Unless the growers were from the same geographic area and used similar methods it would be impossible to get a good comparison of the fruit. I think that yes we may have been doing it right already and that it is such a large scale project that we have to stand a long way back to see it in full. Thousands of growers working together with a common goal, with small populations working on different pieces like dark orange or thick walls the sum of all added together equals the fruit we will have years from now. Kind of like building a puzzle with our nose against the picture. I think that we should work on the part that interests us, secure in the knowledge that all the pieces will come together at some time. Twenty years from now will the fruit resemble todays fruit? Orange fruit have become more sought after and I think they will leave their mark on future generations.

Personally I think we should give ourselves a pat on the back for a job well done so far. Howard Dill built a great foundation and other great growers will keep the project going all the while entertaining millions of people. Don

1/3/2007 11:23:58 PM

Hudsonville, Michigan (michiganpumpkins@sbcglobal.net)

Great thread.
We are considering such a breeding program in Michigan if I can get enough growers behind the effort. I think this sort of breeding effort is tailor-made for clubs.
Maybe if individual clubs could organize their breeding goals, then work together to take different pieces of the puzzle, it would certainly speed things along.
i.e. Club A breeds for thick walls
CLub B breeds for color
Club C breeds for shape
Club D breeds for stem size
Club E breeds for disease resistance
CLub F breeds for increased duration of fruit growth cycle

1/4/2007 8:04:56 AM