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Eddyz@efirehose.net

Ok, here is a thought, before I leave.
I don't understand much about genetics, so this again may be a silly question, but, I'll say it anyway.
I guess more of a statement than a question.
The weight gains shooting through the roof, every year, is it really about genetics. Can it be by what we're adding to our growing curve.
Why are certain seeds better than others, we say genetics.
Can it be simply because we use a specific additive, like kelp??????
In my last bit of research and after a phone conversation with a heavy hitter, can most of what we see be because of something like the Agro K program,
Here are my thoughts, Joe P has 2 seeds that are fantastic, Phil Hunt also and they both used Agro K, so can it be possible that the progam is leaving a residue that defines the seed output. Are the additives modifying the seed or is it hybred vigor
It may be the addition of Calcium, etc, that is changing the genetic makeup.
We are trying to produce bigger fruit, and maybe we're being bonused here by developing a better seed.

1/4/2007 11:53:35 AM

South East

i think you may have a point there eddy. When 2 olympic athletes have a child, will the child become a olympian?
That would depend on its upbringing: food, exersize, conditions surrounding the child. It might as well turn into a crack addict! it might have the genes, but thats not enough. Genes are the foundation, you will have to do lots off things (if not all ) right to reach the full potential of those genes. So i dont realy think its the genes that make a seed particularly good but the growers that grow, their the ones that make the difference between 500 or 1500 lbs (and im leaving out all kinds off variabels now, like weather, soil etc.). So if you are saying that its the things like ferts and microbial life and so on that are responsable for the gain in weight previous years, then i think your right. i think growers dont improve genes but improve the skill it takes to get everthing out of thos genes. really improving genes would mean you would have to target a particlar gen and find a way to add this to a plant(for ex. the gen off size)or alter it. And were a long long time away from that, if we would even wont that! but that a ethical issue....

1/4/2007 12:14:55 PM

Www.extremepumpkinstore.com

great post Eddy

1/4/2007 1:27:51 PM

Commack, NY

i think its both.....we have collectively (intentionally or unintentionally) refined our current gene pool. Some select for color, others for pure size, whatever. As we continue to select for certain characteristics, they would, at least in my opinion, be enhanced and we continue on. Bigger pumpkins, more orange, more uniform shape, heavy to the charts etc. Its hard, if not impossible to predict, but one person grows heavy, others like it, they grow it, it goes heavy etc. Get one in there that goes light, maybe some wont grow it. then you see some seed lines dieing out due to issues like dill rings, splitting etc........now on the other side of this is in addition to this selective breeding, we are also improving our techniques, strategies whatever. there are guys that dont fertilize at all, like the Carlson/Peterson team, 1432 with nothing but good soil and good technique. Of course we all know that weather plays a huge part. but in the end, i still think its both genetics and grower technique, both are being refined, and enhanced every year.

1/4/2007 1:40:25 PM

Western NY

the thought has been around a while that the agro-k treated plants have seeds that produce better. it does explain joe's hot seeds, my 1407, the 1370 rose, and others.

but then again, we need to remember that correlation does not equal causation.

personally, i see a direct correlation between my weights and the amount of time i spend on the plants.

1/4/2007 1:57:11 PM

Long Island,New York

I think its the care one puts into the whole growing process from dollars spent on ammendments to dollars spent on equipment to allow us to do many more plants than the olden days. Refining the growing process and advances in fertility combined with refinments in the growers themselves have really got us here in my opinion. Weather is usually the biggest reason for that "local pocket of greater than usual sized fruits" we see every year. I really dont think theres as much positive overall selection bringing us bigger every year....we still grow seeds known to have dill rings, por color, stem issues, and BES tendencies cause if you get past that you get a biggie....and no-ones growing 15 plants and picking the best to grow out. This is just my opinion...I know what I do...I know what I don't do. I know what others do...and get bigger...and I know from experience in 3 different (radically) environments how important the growing area is. Diseases stink...just look at what Jerry and Wallaces have done by switching patches.........

1/4/2007 4:39:02 PM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

I think it could be that a healthier soil/plant could result in healther seeds. But I would think that a healthier seed would only be of value only from germination, to shortly after(until the roots support the young plant). Maybe healthier seeds would result in less double/flatvines or club roots.

1/4/2007 11:30:10 PM

Indiana

Wallaces do not use Agro K

I have often considered many of the same things Eddy. I agree Good post.

Tom

1/4/2007 11:38:11 PM

Ohio

Wolfey, you could be right about about a seed producing better that came from a pumpkin grown from the agro-k program and Im no expert and I know you say its hear say, but I can see where the agro-k program can make a healthier seed if it came from a healthy pumpkin, but after the seed is planted there is just to much going on after that in the soil for this seed to produce better in my opinion ,verses one that was never used with agro-k products, I think once a seed hits the dirt its up to the grower after that and this is when genetics play the part along with good soil.
Im definatly going with the agro-k program this year (mixed in with the Wallace soil program.) Im really looking foward to using it for bigger pumpkins.

Brooks

1/5/2007 6:48:05 AM

Rhode Island

its all good (as they say) but i like and agree with andys take. the harder you work the luckier you get. lol
pap

1/5/2007 8:33:05 AM

Cameron,ontario Team Lunatic

I have to agree with most as well. The more time & effort you give them, the bigger the rewards. All the pieces of the puzzle must be in place though. Good seed, good soil, good weather, good work ethics & lots of good luck go into producing big pumpkins. I'm not sure if the fertilizer program effects the seeds, but it certainly worth discussing it more. I can see that a healthier plant would in turn produce a healthier seed. Great thread Eddy.

Phil

1/5/2007 9:02:08 AM

President - GPC

We all have to THANK, Al Gore,,,,,and "IEH" Its the internet....."The Information Exchange Highway".....I think that success breads success as folks share their information with others.....everyone wants to Grow Big and BIGGER,...... successes, methods, soil ammendments, seeds, ferts, processes and the sharing of that information, old and new augments greater success.......be it genetics, ways and means......the more we share "IT".......the bigger "IT" grows.......my 2cents anywiz........
Good Post Eddy.........

1/5/2007 10:11:51 AM

Auburn Maine, USA

In defense of genetics (which growing tatics maximise a plants potential), if you wanted to end up with a large Chihuahua, you'd keep breeding the largest of each generation with the largest. After 15-20 generations, you'd end up with one mean ass Chihuahua.

1/7/2007 11:43:28 PM

South Bloomfield, Ohio

I agree. A combination of genetics and care make for bigger end-results. After all, we're talking about DNA and dominant-recessive genes here. We breed livestock and crops for the same reason.

1/9/2007 8:51:07 PM

President - GPC

Question??? In Livestock it seems to me the male is the dominate genetic source. However in Pumpkins, hasnt it been that the female is considered the main contributor? Or am I upside backwards.....again?

1/10/2007 9:32:26 AM

South Bloomfield, Ohio

Male characteristics show up in the seed of the female pollinated by it. Those characteristics are not evident until the fruit grown by it.

1/13/2007 12:36:17 AM