From

Location

Message

Date Posted

No Place Special

There are many different ways that we as pumpkin growers choose which seeds to grow each season. Many are chosen based on name recognition. Hey Ill grow one of these Bobier seeds because he is a Heavy Hitter. Others might grow the 1502 because it’s the World record. Someone may choose a seed just because it should throw orange. Others will plant mostly proven seed to play on the safe side and some will grow new or unproven seeds hoping to uncover something special. There are even those growers who are self-proclaimed genetic experts, I am not one of them. With the exception of being a genetic expert, I am guilty of all of the above and one more, My gut feeling.

1/15/2007 5:39:51 PM

No Place Special

When im choosing seeds and making crosses, I love to go with my gut feeling. I don’t have scientific data or statistical spreadsheets that try to prove what would make a good cross, I just do what feels right, what my gut tells me to do. The last two years have been a success. In 2004 I produced a 1083 (842 Eaton x 1225 Jutras) and 1125dmg (869 Calai x 1225 Jutras). The 842 was a somewhat proven seed and my gut said it could be great and it now is. For those who don’t know the 842 grew the 1446 world record that year. The 869 Calai had grown only 1 over 1000 lbs but I thought it could do much more and its offspring were becoming known for their color. I wanted a beautiful 1000 lber and the 869 was my seed of choice. The 1225 was its chosen pollinator for size and color. It was a new unproven seed but my gut said it was the one to plant. The 1225 has now grown a 1443 and several others over 1000. I was the first one to push the 869 over 1100 lbs and it grew me a perfect shaped and colored 1125 lb fruit. In 2005 I was once again blessed with making a great cross, my 781.5 (1101 Northrup x 1125 Frantz). Both were unproven 04’ seeds and my gut told me crossing them would make big nice orange offspring. In my opinion the 1101 and 1125 were the best looking 04 pumpkins.

1/15/2007 5:40:08 PM

No Place Special

Here is proof of my previous success. My 1125 has grown many nice looking fruit. Offspring over 700 lbs: 1200, 1028, 992, 918, 909, 905, 764, 744, 718
My 1083 has done well also: 1114, 1090, 1010, 881 and 743
2005 was the first year for the 781 that I had such high hopes for. It did everything I hoped it would. It produced an 1193 Est., 1032, 876, 725 and many other beautiful pumpkins. Miss Maine picked a 781 offspring as most beautiful at one contest.

1/15/2007 5:40:26 PM

No Place Special

In the years 2004 and 2005 I was successful in making 3 now proven seeds. This is very exciting to me. Half of the joy I get from growing giant pumpkins is making my own crosses and growing my own seeds. I assume most of us feel the same way. So I started thinking about our 06’ crop and if I felt there was anything with potential. Yes there was one cross that I have had that gut feeling about as far back as May. It was grown on my 1083 04’ Iowa State record seed. It is now called the 1010 Frantz 2006 dmg. It was pollinated by an un proven 581 Young seed. It looks good on paper but what might make it special?

1/15/2007 5:40:43 PM

No Place Special

Well its special to me because its mine, I created it. Its special because my gut says so. Now that’s not enough to convince someone else that its special. Looking at its hierarchy tree it looks fantastic on paper. But what looks so great about it? Hummm, what if one were to look at its background a little closer than the traditional Mother X Father cross and maybe what they produced. What if in addition to that, we looked at all 4 grandparents? Lets take the 581 Young for example. What the heck is that? Yes most people wont know the 581 by its name and because it was only 581 lbs they might pass it over without even looking at its genetic makeup. Well the 581 Young is 1420 x 723. WOW killer cross Don! That’s right there could be world record potential in that type of cross.

1/15/2007 5:40:59 PM

No Place Special

Ok back to the 1010 (1083 Frantz x 581 Young). Don’t look like anything special there, 1083 and 581. Who would plant that, I don’t see any famous genetics in that. Those type of seeds are a dime a dozen right? WRONG! Well at least the research I have done says that’s wrong, and actually says the 1010 is in a unique category with very few other seeds. Im sure there will be a few who try to tear my thoughts apart and some others who will accuse me of only trying to self promote my seed. (Yes I want to make my seed known J) Im fine with that and everyone is welcome to their own opinions, here is mine.

1/15/2007 5:41:14 PM

No Place Special

The 1010 Frantz 06’ has special grandparents. Not just 1, 2 or 3, but ALL 4 are special. When you look past the unknown parents, 1083 and 581, you will see these 4 special grandparents. These are the 842 Eaton, 1225 Jutras, 1420 LaRue and 723 Bobier. In these days of growing giant pumpkins, a seed must be able to produce pumpkins well over 1300 lbs, maybe even into the 1400’s now to get any special attention or recognition and for a grower to be considered a Heavy Hitter its commonly felt that 1200lbs is the unwritten benchmark these days. Ok everyone recognizes the 842, 1225, 1420 and 723. These are some of the best of the best. Each one of these seed stocks has produced HUGE fruit.

1/15/2007 5:41:31 PM

No Place Special

The 842 produced a 1446 World record and is ranked #3 by the AGGC in avg top 5 weight at 1282.9 lbs.
The 1225 Jutras produced a 1443 Palmer and is ranked 18 by the AGGC in avg top 5 weight at 1153.5. This is only a 2003 Seed, very few seasons behind it and it will surely climb its way up that ladder in the next few years.
The 1420 LaRue produced the 1332 Werner and is ranked 16 by the AGGC in avg top 5 weight at 1164.2. This is only a 2004 seed and its my guess it will also continue to climb and we have not seen its full potential yet.
The 723 Bobier. Probably the most famous and widely planted seed in AG history. Has grown the 1407 Wolf, 1367 Rose, 1354 Checkon, 1344 Rose and many other monsters. It is ranked #2 in Avg top 5 weight at 1343 lbs by the AGGC and ranked #1 in 1000 lb pumpkins grown with 38 under its belt.

1/15/2007 5:41:48 PM

No Place Special

What does all this mean? Heck maybe nothing. Maybe it will only amount to a pile of cow poop. But I think it could possibly mean something. It could mean that its different. Its not hard to find a great cross today between any 2 given popular producing seeds but to have all 4 superior grandparents?!?!?! Hummm. Speaking of these seed stocks in general, three of the 4 grandparents have produced 1400 plus lb pumpkins and the 3rd has produced over 1300 lbs. The avg high weight for these 4 grandparents is 1407 lbs!!!! Yes that’s right, on avg these 4 grandparents have produced an avg. high weight of 1407 lbs!!!!! Man o Man there has to be something to that don’t there?

1/15/2007 5:42:09 PM

No Place Special

Ok before I get excited that the 1010 is in a class all on its own (im talking 06 seeds only now), I bet there are probably a hundred other seed choices that offer the same type of potential right? I was surprised to find out that it is as rare as I thought, I think, someone feel free to show me where im wrong. I found several that were kind of thinking about being in the ballpark and only one that beats the 1010. The 1018 Busquaert (1333 Connolly x 1228 Jutras) with 1068Wallace, 1253 Sperry, 842 Eaton and 1068 Again.
The 1018’s grandparents avg high weight is 1416 lbs!!!!!!! I mean come on WOWSERS!!!

1/15/2007 5:42:25 PM

No Place Special

Ok so if you could do a search for the following:
-    2006 Seed
-    Eliminate selfed and sibbed crosses
-    All 4 grandparents avg top weight is over 1400 lbs
-    The seed itself is atleast 1000 lbs
-    The pollinating plant produced atleast 950 lbs


What would the results be? I THINK the results would give two seeds.

1/15/2007 5:42:47 PM

No Place Special

The 1018 Busquaert and the 1010 Frantz. I wonder if the results would still be the same if we ran this for ALL years not just 2006. Im thinking there is a good chance that the 1018 and 1010 could be the only ones ever to meet this critera.


Ok maybe you like my thoughts on this but are not really excited about the 1018 or 1010 for whatever the reason. Here is a list of some that come kind of close.

1/15/2007 5:43:07 PM

No Place Special

1225 Pukos
1223 Perham
1020 Wells
1151 Bailey
1160 Whittier
1191 Werner
1180 Jutras
1155 Martin
1116 LaRue
1110 Wallace
1138 Ford
1125 Checkon
1275 Carlson / Peterson
1147 popp
1140 Wallace
1103 Whittier
1042 Busquaert
1041 LaRue
1025 Popp
1008.1 Werner
1006 Whittier
1004 Holland
1002 Paton
1103 Roberts
1092 Martin
1082 Ford
1065 McKie
1064 LaRue
1062 Ford
1058 Whittier

1/15/2007 5:43:35 PM

No Place Special

The closest thing in my opinion to having great huge producing proven grandparents and fantastic color would be the 1099 Clark. 3 of the 4 grandparents have grown over 1200 lbs


If you would be interested in planting the 1010, please shoot me an email.

MikeFrantz@mchsi.com

1/15/2007 5:44:00 PM

Mt Vernon Ky

great read mike thanks vic in ky

1/15/2007 6:13:50 PM

Nashville, TN

Snow getting to ya? After I print all this out, decipher it, file it away to a mental memory chip... Then I'll reconfigure the rear patch so that I might be able to squeeze another slot BIG enough to grow a 1010.

Thankyou, you've got mail...

1/15/2007 6:16:02 PM

Indiana

Damn Every time i think i have my seeds picked out for this year somone comes out with a reason to make me change my mind.

Steve

1/15/2007 7:00:22 PM

Ca

I agree with what you say as far as it goes, but... what if you had grown the 869 x 1225 the first year you were growing (and assuming for the sake of argument that it was the exact same seed, even though it didn't exist then)? What would your weight have been? Would that have made it a poor cross? And would other growers have planted it, and found out what a great cross it was?
There must be hundreds, if not thousands of unproven crosses with low weights due to the grower more than the genetics, but with potential that is equal to or greater than widely planted seeds. This caveat applies to all generations. What would happen if 50 top growers tried such a seed?

1/15/2007 7:15:29 PM

Rapid City, SD

i think someone didn't work today

1/15/2007 7:20:15 PM

Ohio

can I have your autograph Mike?,LOL

1/15/2007 7:31:23 PM

Georgia

Good post and I usually go with my gut on what to plant...just got done checking out my seed stock and trying to figure out what crosses to make and which ones are gonna get dirty..but it changes week to week..I reckon ill figure it out.

1/15/2007 8:03:53 PM

Topsfield, Ma.

Ditto Moondog...LOL!

1/15/2007 8:10:32 PM

Berlin,mi.(zuhlke2@hotmail.com)

my gut tells me you should plant my 1302 mike. lol

1/15/2007 9:01:22 PM

Manchester,N.H.

Ok how about this one I know its not over 1000 lbs and I do not know what the pollinator grew but how about this one.
857.5 Wotring ( 1469 Checkon x 1327 Dueck ) the grand parents are the 1354 Checkon, 1104 Hester, 805 Pukos, 842 Eaton and they have a combined top avg of 1427 lbs.

1/15/2007 11:14:50 PM

Boulder County Colorado USA planet Earth

1302 yaaaaaa

1/15/2007 11:54:48 PM

Ohio

Steve, your 1302 is a massive and mean looking seed,Just the looks of it says ''Big Pumpkins no whammys'',lol

1/16/2007 5:15:42 AM

Hudsonville, Michigan (michiganpumpkins@sbcglobal.net)

Hmmm. I wonder what Mike's planting this year?!?

1/16/2007 11:37:21 AM

Nova Scotia

I got a very good feeling on my 967 the cross is 1420 x 1370 998.6 pukos has done very well 1370 should go nice on the colour

1/16/2007 2:55:20 PM

Lexington, Ky

Mike should be granted Honorary Genetic Expert status for this well thought out post. Thanks for sharing.

Jamie

1/16/2007 5:25:35 PM

San Jose garysand@pacbell.net

Mike could sell ice cubes to Eskimo's

oh wait, they may need some the way things are going

:->

1/16/2007 6:58:00 PM

Kalamazoo, MI (Jpwrhse@charter.net)

I was hoping to see what people had to say about the genetic influence the grand parents have upon the seed to be planted. How far back down the tree should we look when looking at the genetic background of the seeds? Do the grand parents or great grand parents have a great deal of affect on the seed? So if the 723 was planted in 2000 the year after it was grown and then its offspring every year after that it could be way down the tree, and no longer seen if we go just to grand parents. How long before that genetics is washed out of the seed? How about if the 723 is crossed with the offspring repeatedly over the next 5 years? How much affect does each level have? If you look at the 1068 as the "next great seed" as a previous post suggests, why is this? Is it from the parental cross (845x898)? Or further on the tree? Or is constistant quality gentics all through a tree that is making the difference in the yearly breaking of the world record over the last few years? How great is the success rate of 1000+ pumpkins in producing offspring weighing 1000+? Or is it better cross some 800-900 lb pumpkins with great genetic backgrounds in hopes that the background is enough, could it have been soil or weather conditions that prevented the 800-900 lb pumpkin from making it over 1000+ and does it have enough power for its offspring to do it when given the right conditions?

1/16/2007 7:58:00 PM

Kalamazoo, MI (Jpwrhse@charter.net)

I know lots of questions but that sales pitch has my head spinning.

by the way you have mail :)

1/16/2007 8:00:05 PM

Auburn Maine, USA

If you are growing for shape and color, the 781 is a DAMN GOOD SEED. Looks Like what a pumpkin should

1/16/2007 8:07:37 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

>> I was hoping to see what people had to say about the genetic influence the grand parents have upon the seed to be planted.<<

This may sound a little bit "looney bin" to some, in fact it might to me too, but there is some thought that grandparents have a lot of effect on grandchild, and in fact it can be greater than the actual parent. Something to do with weird stuff like mitochondria... I don't understand it.

And, I see this effect in humans... but not necessarily in pumpkins although the theory exists...

Now, if you believe that, well, you're open minded and probably a deep thinker. Unfortunately not even the REAL experts totally understand or agree on this (to my knowledge).

1/16/2007 8:31:41 PM

No Place Special

Dorknob, I agree 100% with what you say!!!
Winey- yes i did work SOME today.
Brooks- anytime man
Z- My "gut" (HA) says 1302 will kick butt. Its on the first string back up list Ill prob regret not adding it to the starting line up.
Dennis- Yes that 857 Looks freaking awesome man!!!!! YEee haaa, thats what im talking about now. 857 is nothing to sneeze at and i personally wouldnt be turned off of the 857 even if the pollinator did nothing. I dont see this one on AGGC.

1/16/2007 9:00:12 PM

President - GPC

Selfing/ SIB....It have read that after the 3rd and additional.. selfing mothernature and genetics starts having problems with low seed counts, disease vulnerabilities, small leaves, problems that reduce the likelyhood of long term survival....trying to keep the genetic pool alive.......thoughts?

1/17/2007 10:08:16 AM

President - GPC

You have email, desire to obtain seed, great genetics opp

1/17/2007 1:20:14 PM

Nashville, TN

Jpwrhse: Every time a gamete is formed - the diploid DNA of that parent is halved. During this process, you've got DNA crossovers that occure. LM.terms: Some grandoffspring have MORE DNA that come from a certain grandparent - then other full-sibling offspring.. Molecularly, it's not necessarily a straight-foreward 25:25:25:25 ratio. Though it AVERAGES out to be that ratio when many grandoffspring are compared.


Wiz: Just downloaded a highly interesting article concerning this very topic. In the American Journal of Botany: Oct. 2006. 'Inbreeding effects on Blossom volatiles in Cucurbita pepo subsp. texana'. Results of this study shows that inbreeding depression vary amongst family lines within the same population. Several fields even had results where outcrossed plants had higher rates of certain insect carried pathogens, than did inbred plants in the same field. It's a fascinating field of research, and I'm sure more will be done!

1/17/2007 1:49:37 PM

Nashville, TN

Cliff: Chloroplasts are transmitted in the same manner as mitochodria. Basically the chloroplasts/mitochondria are inherited in a straight line down the female line. So you share more total cellular DNA with your maternal grandmother, than any other grandparent.

Depending on species - Total cellular DNA (lets say - by weight..) is around 60% from the mother, and 40% from the father. The mother supplies the direct means for energy production - by supplying the mitochondria/chloroplasts - for all of her offspring.

1/17/2007 1:55:07 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

This means that Mike's 1010 should have genes for energy production that are descended mostly unchanged from the 842 Eaton.

I can live with that. ;-)

But I wonder if we can see patterns emerge here from other seed stocks we've already had a chance to look at?

1/17/2007 4:11:47 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

My dad had jet black hair, my mom very blond. Brother and sister, both red heads. Both of my grandfathers were redheads. And so it goes. No mailman jokes, OK!!! LOL Peace, Wayne

1/17/2007 10:15:33 PM

Ohio

Wayne, your right, its also kinda like twins in a family, seems to come in a pattern in gernerations.

1/17/2007 10:47:59 PM

President - GPC

That would lead to proof we have seen about more dominance from the female sides....course I experience that real time first hand.....lol and can now relate it to the patch. I really like your genetic knowledge science teacher, you add a lot of information in relative easy terms to understand that I think many folks desire on this site. Genetics is not easy but as we desire to learn more and understand, this is how we can achieve higher weights......Im certainly learning and wanting mo info....keep up the good work......

1/18/2007 9:03:19 AM

Colorado

great post mike. I would be interested to see what crosses are made in the future with 4 outstanding grandparents. It might be interesting to see (1347.5 Wallace x 1017 Kennedy). That would give grandparents of 1068 Wallace, 723 Bobier, 842 Eaton, and 1370 Rose- maybe the best grandparents of all time? or maybe not, but that's the fun of it all.

1/20/2007 10:47:51 AM

Leamington, Ont.

I agree with the grandparent influence theory Mike.

Heres something I did, my 506 Spada '06 (897.5 Davies X 724 Pley).
897.5= (845 Bobier X 1260.4 Weir)- 724 Pley= 695 Handy X 898 Knauss.
I purposely crossed the two with the grandparents and their offspring in mind and their potential to continue to throw heavy. (looks cool on paper also) ;)

1/21/2007 12:47:42 AM

No Place Special

506 Spada does look great on paper and I bet it would look even better in the patch! If I was smart I would cross it or something like it with my 1010. Rob and I already have our 07' seeds picked so maybe in 2008. Mr. Spada, you prove out your 506 and ill prove out my 1010 and then we will have to consider getting together in the future. If we crossed these 2 we would have 8 super great grandparents! Something to think about.

Thanks everyone, it looks like several 1010's will see soil this year. I still have more if anyone would like one. I have had some emails from some shy rookies. EVERYONE is welcome, rookies dont be shy.

Mike

1/23/2007 4:45:02 PM

Mill Creek West by god Virginia

hey mike can youre ole hillbilly buddy have a few 1010 ill swapp ya some blackberry coolaide!

1/24/2007 12:28:36 AM

Germany

Hi Mike
i sended you a e-mail, if u didnt get one, here is mine:
Michael_Rupf@hotmail.com

Michael

2/23/2008 10:46:29 AM