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Wood River, IL (kennyw_49@yahoo.com)

I'm looking to pick the minds of some growers that grow with a priority on color. I'm trying to make some final choices on seeds to plant for 07. I only have 1 proven seed, that being the 981 Zunino. I also have a nice collection of seeds from 06 & 07 nicest orange pumpkins.

I'm not really sure how I go about picking the other 2 seeds. I would like to pick seeds from nice looking pumpkins. But I'm not sure it's that easy. What percent of the time does the seed produce a pumpkin that looks just like the pumpkin it came from? Do I need to factor in what the parents look like? Then do I factor in the grandparents? I quess what I'm asking is are there any rules of thumb that I need to know?

Thanks

Kenny

2/8/2007 11:20:57 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Kenny,

A timely post from my own perspective. The kids at my son's school were stuck growing a backup plant after the seeds we had chosen were damaged. That backup had some butt ugly color & were voted "Most Aesthetically Challenged" by the TV people covering our weigh-off.

We also have the 981 & are considering it.
We have an 869.5 Calai too.

981 x 869 might be nice.

But there have been a lot of nice color crosses lately & I'm interested in hearing the thoughts of others.

2/8/2007 12:55:43 PM

Jericho Vermont

Kenny,
Best of luck with the decisions. Even proven color seeds will put a variety of quality colors out. The only educated guess I use is to take a good look at the female and look into progeny that the male has been involved with. A lot of folks that I know who grow for color are always trying to increase the size of the pumpkin as well with out jeopardizing the orange qualities that they like. I look at past progeny of the same crosses as well if they have been grown.

No matter how ya look at it there is always a gamble with a new unproven seed. But they sure are exciting to grow especially if it is one of your own crosses. We are going to plant our 588 this year which should be great color and shape as well as our 729 which we are hoping will remain a great color with increased size of the 1180 Daletas which was the male.
Best of luck and remember to have fun. Growing is a great experience.

2/8/2007 1:00:16 PM

Maine

Check out the 606 Clark it grew the 1099 clark... oh yeah check out that 1099 also but put your sunglasses on first..lol

2/8/2007 4:22:08 PM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

Kenny,
If you list the seeds you have, that have good orange genetics, maybe we could give you our opinions. I'm hoping to make some good orange crosses this year, myself......Doug

2/8/2007 4:38:03 PM

Dillsburg, PA

Now your a grower I can relate with. For the last few years I have been following the 603 Muller offspring. In 05 I selfed two 603's off of my plant. Those selfed seeds and two 603 will be planted in my patch this year. Didn't grow in 06 (moved). IMO the 603 produces about a nice of a big pumpkin that you can hope for. Shape and dark color is what this seed throws. There are not many 603 left but you might try for a seed that has these genetics in it. My patch 6 plants will be a variety of 603 and offspring. best of luck.

2/8/2007 6:09:47 PM

Kenny, I know you have the 1046 Bowles'06 and the 1023dmg Bowles'06.

When I did the crosses on the 364 Webster (won prettiest pumkin award for George) and the 691 Duchezeau (a nice shaped medium orange fruit) I saw that there were 3 instances of 1016 Daletas (big and usually orange offspring) in the female side of the lineage.
The 691=1121 Ford (dark orange grown on the 1016)X1225 Jutras (med orange grown on the 1016)
both of these have thrown big and orange fruit.
The 364=1016 X 1036 Companion (dark orange fruit)

Both the 1046 and the 1023 should go orange and with that history of going big I'm looking forward to proving them this year. Those that saw the 1046 would vouch for it being an exceptional fruit. The 1023dmg was my fastest growing fruit ahead of the 1175 on a dailey chart.

Choices get tough this time of year,,,heh heh

2/8/2007 6:59:24 PM

Berlin,mi.(zuhlke2@hotmail.com)

KENNY, I think most of the seeds I sent you would do very well for color. I am on the same page as you. I am looking for color 1st and size 2nd. Steve

2/8/2007 7:50:58 PM

ordinary,VA

seems the orange fever will be spreading this year.
Steve im growing for color first this year as well.

2/8/2007 8:50:48 PM

Eastern Pennsylvania

Seems like most of us newer growers prefer orange over size. For many of us living outside of pumpkin central, even a 5-600lb pumpkin is the biggest anybody we know has ever seen let alone grown- so it might as well be dark orange! I've decided to grow 1 or 2 big uglies this year but there will still be room for my own 1230 Delatas x 603 Muller and a 1101 Northrup.

2/8/2007 9:16:51 PM

SF Bay Area, California

Bright orange and a nice shape have been my hot buttons for the last five years. There used to be few choices out there for big and orange. These days there are quite a few orange freaks out there like me doing all sorts of 810 Dill/ 1230 Daletas/ 869 Calai/ 1016 Daletas/ 801 Stelts crosses. Quite a few of these crosses are proven for eye catching color.

To guarantee a nice color and shape you need to look back several generations and find a seed that has it in both parents as far back as possible. I still remember seeing the 920 Cole and wishing I could grow a pumpkin like that. That seed is the mother of the 810 Dill and is where a lot of the great color comes from for many of the 810 Dill offspring like the 670 Daigle.

The 981 Zunino has one of the biggest and prettiest 810 offpring, the 1048 Companion on it's father's side. The mother, a 1230 Daletas had one of the nicest tall shapes I've ever seen. This is a proven seed that hasn't thrown it's prettiest or biggest pumpkin yet and is a great choice.

I'm biased of course, but if you don't mind a longer lower shape and you want something bright smooth orange with the potential to be really BIG, I like the 1191 Zunino. Both parents turned bright orange in total shade. I've always had to pull the shade cloth off and let a fruit darken in the sun to get dark orange before but not these two...

The pollinator of the 1191 Zunino I like too, MiMi, the 1034 Zunino. This pumpkin is a 920 Cole look-a-like, only bigger with a nice fat green stem to boot... It is crossed back into the 981 Zunino, so it has generations of orange as far back as the eye can see.

Funny, the new crosses I like the best all come from the same grower....

2/8/2007 9:39:00 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

I love a good true orange discussion!

I have grown the 981 Zunino for each of the last two years. The first year it had awesome shiny color, the second year it had good color with cantaloping. But each year it was the most vigorous plant I had, with big strong vines and nice leaves.

A 981 Zunino X 869 Calai could be a great cross!

There are some orange-orange growers in my neck-of-the-woods. Brian Christensen and Gordon Tanner have some nice crosses that I want to plant. The other aforementioned Zunino seeds (1191 and 1034) are going in too. The only problem is not all of these great orange hopes can be allowed to grow to maturity.

2/8/2007 9:53:22 PM

Logan Utah

the 354 has good genetics behind and is a really nice orange

2/8/2007 11:22:18 PM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

The 1191 Zunino looks promising for shape, color, and size, as both parents went over 1000 lbs., and both had nice shape and color IMO.
Many other nice 2006 color crosses out there as well.
I'd like to see more progeny out of the 1233.5 Reiss next year. The 1008.4 Reiss(801.5 Stelts X self) could be nice as well(may be a nice pollinator). I tried it last year, but it flatvined.

2/8/2007 11:30:18 PM

Wood River, IL (kennyw_49@yahoo.com)

Thanks folks, you have giving me a lot to think about. Please keep the opinions coming. Kenny

2/9/2007 6:00:06 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

I have an idea about these color fruit but I'll start another thread since it deviates from the original.

2/9/2007 7:39:43 AM

Coventry R.I.

KENNY, dont forget about the 1225 jutras ,i,m crossing it with the 1110 wallace .Steve davies 748 846 x1370 was a great lookin pumpkin , best lookin

2/9/2007 7:55:19 AM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

808 Beachy or my 454 Engel throws a beautiful orange pumpkin.

2/9/2007 9:04:01 AM

Mt Vernon Ky

Kenny the 981 i sent you along with the 595 est james i sent you was a 981 x 670 x 670 it was putting on 15 pb a day when it was cut open in my patch it will be in my patch this year with the 981

2/9/2007 3:24:38 PM

Long Island,New York

641Andrews=670Daigle x 603.5Muller.
364Andrews=603.5Muller x 670Daigle.
Pics at end of diary.....might go orange.......

2/9/2007 4:33:20 PM

No Place Special

I have a few more 1028s I can give out if anyone would like to try it.

1028 Frantz/Seals 06' (1125 Frantz x 670 Daigle)
Both the 1125 and 670 have grown 1200 lb pumpkins

1125 = 869 Calai x 1225 Jutras.

can see 1125 here: http://bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=28203

2/9/2007 5:53:41 PM

Linwood, NC

695 Holder 2006....
1225.4 Jutras x 869.5 Calai.....
22% heavy to the measurement chart

2/9/2007 8:34:00 PM

Enumclaw, Washington

Urban Farmer (Frantz)I sent off an e-mail last night; it was returned. Would you please send the address to risicountry@tx3.com

Thanks

2/10/2007 12:51:36 PM

Napa Valley, CA

I see lots of great suggestions here.......I would like to add to the list
the 1046.6 Bowles (364 Webster x 691 Duchezeau)
http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=58556

and

the 364 Webster (1016 Daletas x 1036 Companion) and mother of the 1046.6

another shameless Vince-like plug...........(>:

2/11/2007 1:08:02 AM

Long Island,New York

These are the seeds that will hit my color patch this year: 641Andrews
364.1Andrews
364Webster
940Mombert00
500Northrup
603.5Muller
1233Reiss
and perhaps one other I wont name until its in.

2/11/2007 9:37:46 AM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

Glenn,
Those are stellar orange genetics!

2/11/2007 1:11:52 PM

Sparta, NC

I'm growing the 869 Calai and 1101 Northrup this year.

2/11/2007 2:19:34 PM

Nashville, TN

There are two different genes responsible for orange color:

B - precocious yellow, causes ovaries to be yellow from the point of differentiation. Also causes yellow striping and mottling on stems and vines of plants. Gives a lighter, bright orange.

Rs - Red Skin. Ovaries/fruit are deep green until near fruit maturity. Doesn't affect any other part of plant. This gene gives the deepest shades of orange-red seen in Hubbard squash and Prizewinner pumkins.

Neither has been specifically bred for. But here's a list of varieties that I confirmed particular orange genes in.

Rs gene carriers: 732 Ebbet, 640.6 Debacco, 610 Garrell, 216 Jepson, 926 Hunt, 222 Debacco.

B-gene carriers: 625 Foss, 631 Robinette, 640.6 Debacco, 660 C.Rose, 1008.5 Mudd, 612 Wolfely.

Some of these were siblings - yet one showed one, the other another. These two genes can both be in the same plant. The 572 Moore showed both, another 926 Hunt showed both.

2/13/2007 7:41:23 PM

Dillsburg, PA

Glenn (LIpumpkin), might have just made the super cross for dark orange pumpkins. I can vouch for the shape and the color of the 603 Muller and have seen many pictures of the 670. Both are really about as pretty as a big pumpkin can get. Anyone after a nice looking big pumpkin should be trying his seeds. It should produce a beauty.

2/13/2007 7:48:52 PM

Dillsburg, PA

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=59373

Who wouldn't want this on their porch.

2/13/2007 7:51:22 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

It's interesting that you say that there are two genes. Here is a question, do these genes operate independently of each other? That is, can they each be present in two different alleles? (I don't know if I expressed that correctly.)

The reason I bring this up... I've noticed that sometimes there are layers of color on AGs. Sometimes there is a fruit which appears a dull salmon or dull orange color, but if you scratch the surface you find a dark red layer underneath. I'm sure there are other combinations. I'm just wondering if there are, or can be in certain circumstances distinct layers of color, each controlled by separate genes operating independently of each other.

This in fact could be the reason that breeding for color is more difficult than it seems that it should be.

2/13/2007 8:30:53 PM

Clayton Cal

scienceteacher you have said B for the 660 c,rose (1036 perez x self ) wasnt the color white? and if so is there diferent for white or is it a combonation of more than one. your input is aprecated.thank you Thad Shirley

2/13/2007 11:02:21 PM