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Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Going back in the hierarchy of the 801 Stelts we keep running into the 567.5 Mombert which had only fair color for its day. Howard's seeds at the time were smooth & orange. Yet on the father's side we find the 542 Laemmle which also had decent orange color.

Where did Helmut Laemmle get his seeds? Dill?
What deep orange seed lines exist today that DON'T have 801 in their hierarchy?

2/9/2007 7:47:38 AM

Colorado

I don't think the 810 Dill has any 801 in it.

2/9/2007 9:25:30 AM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Hmmm... I wasn't around much back then, but most of the photos that I see from 567.5 descendants show them to be reddish orange. I think the red came from the 609 Laemmele.

Laemmele, as the story goes, just replanted seeds from his biggest fruit each year. But where did he get his original seeds? This is a very good question. Could they have originated somewhere else than Dill? Could they have been Prizewinners?

2/9/2007 10:47:44 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

The 810 Dill has 567.5 on both sides.

2/9/2007 4:57:46 PM

SF Bay Area, California

I went through this exercise several years ago and I don't think you will find many smooth orange pumpkins that don't have the 567.5 Mombert in them. The 801 Stelts has it on both sides. One other nice color oldie is the 920 Cole which was off a 567.4 grown by a fella named Wallace - it had the 567.5 Mombert on both sides... Another nice color oldie was the 947 Patrick which was an 801 Stelts selfed.

The 567.5 Mombert was not a smooth orange pumpkin but many of it's offspring were. If you find a smooth orange pumpkin that doesn't have the 567.5 Mombert somewhere in it's background, please let me know....

Of course the 567.5 Mombert was the second generation offspring of the 575.5 Dill 1988. 567.5 was a marriage between Dill's line and Laemmeles. Maybe some hybrid vigor happening there with an orange twist.

2/9/2007 7:19:55 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

My friend Dave Garrell interviewed Helmut Laemmle a few years ago & wrote an article on the subject. I'm not sure if Mr. Laemmle intimated then where his original seed stocks came from. I just emailed Dave to ask if he did.

There was a goup of growers in the area of Mr. Laemmle that included Wright, Gancarz, Ford, Fulp, etc. Their fruit were never noted for good looks as the early photo record indicates. I've amassed a box full of old pictures from the later part of that era (ealry '80's) but the hierarchy trees all dead-end or fail to bridge the gaps.

It would be cool to locate another isolated seed stock that also produces a smooth orange flesh.

2/9/2007 10:01:38 PM

Napa Valley, CA

I agree with Vince, I don't think that there are many smooth skinned orange that are not from the 567.5, however in '04 I did grow a smooth skin medium orange pumpkin that did not come out of the 567.5
Surprisingly it came from green stock. In '04 I wanted to plant the 616 Corkum (squash) but I did not have the seed at the time. Instead I planted a seed that Glenn Andrews sent me.......the packet read "green stock for breeding" "616 Corkum green x Self".......(the 616 throws both orange and green).
The fruit on G's Corkum squash cross started out green for 10 days then turned yellow.

continued......

2/10/2007 1:17:51 AM

Napa Valley, CA

cont. from above....

By August this fruit was a nice smooth skin medium orange pumpkin and it stayed that way until it was harvested in October, at about 400 lbs.
I could only find 2 pics of it, one taken in July and one taken in August (which is a slightly blurry photo with our cat on top). I will post both photos in the BP Photo Gallery.
I have no seeds from it as I sold it to my neighbor, who returned the seeds to me in a plastic bag.......mixed in the same bag were seeds from 2 other pumpkins that I sold her.
One of the seeds in the hirearchy of the 616 is the 923 Brown, which is rumored to have been a very beautiful orange pumpkin. (I do not know if it was smooth skin or not, there is no pic on AGGC).

continued......

2/10/2007 1:31:49 AM

Napa Valley, CA

The 923 Brown can be traced back to the 493.5 Dill '81 (AGGC shows this to be a beautiful smooth skin orange pumpkin).
The 567.5 also has its roots in the 493.5 Dill.......a lot of those nice orange ones out there have 493.5 ancestry.

If a bunch of us planted G's green Corkum cross, I would not be surprised to see several more smooth orange ones in the mix

2/10/2007 1:38:27 AM

Long Island,New York

Thats why I laugh when the genetics pundits claim green is recessive and use a punnit chart to determine the % of green vs % of orange coming from a cross...then, their sole reason why its not as-per-chart is...." oh, it must not be a pure cross". Rediculous. Theres a whole lot more going on there that these guys know. I wish I knew. Grow enough squash, make enough crosses, then grow them out and you'll seewhat im talking about....especially with freakazoids like 900Lyons, 616 corkum, and to a lesser but still contradictory 455Andrews.....AxA does not equal A-squared in "squash" color genetics.

2/10/2007 8:22:57 AM

Indiana

I would like to see the Dill's answer this question. They kept records of basically every giant pumpkin I am told.

2/10/2007 8:42:05 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Why do I do this to myself? As one might expect, the deeper we go the darker & murkier it gets. LOL

Dave's interview with Helmet Laemmle indicates he got his seed stocks from Richard Wright who lives nearby.

I just got off the phone with Mrs. Richard Wright. Mr. Wright is 82 & uses a (currently broken) hearing aid so I spoke to him through his wife. They are tickled to know that we still recognize his contribution to the current hobby.

Richard Wright got his first seeds from Ed Gancarz. He doesn't remember what year he started growing seeds from the Dill's but he did grow Dill seeds at some point.

The frustration is trying to pin-point the date that Dill genetics entered the picture. Personally I would like to obtain a pure Dill line from prior to the mixing of the "Pre-Dill/Gancarz era" gene pool. In theory, these Dill seed stocks would offer the greatest genetic consistency since Howard had spent many years breeding in isolation using modern closed pollination practices.

The 451 Ford '76 seeds that I have would offer the best chance to find purity on the non-Dill side if they can ever be germinated.

What I'd like to know is whether the 542 Laemmle '87 had some or no Dill genetics in it.

2/10/2007 11:07:31 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

George,

The pix are up. The 616 Corkum '98 also goes straight back (mother's side) to the 530 Gancarz '89. The father's side has Dill genetics all over.

Once again; Is the 530 Gancarz a Dill derived stock or wasn't it? Aughhhh!!!!

2/10/2007 11:16:18 AM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Very cool that you're able to do this sleuthing... So, I guess we're probably not talking about a big strain of Prizewinners! I'm glad to know that.

So, did Ed Gancarz have a distinct genetic line, different than the Dill's, and that became mixed at some point?

2/10/2007 11:42:11 AM

Greencastle, PA

Gancarz grew a 579 Nesbitt in the mid-80's. Supposedly, The 579 came from a Scott Cully seed.

2/10/2007 2:11:49 PM

Pumpkintown, SC

Your talk about the 616 Corkum reminded me of one of my old seed quests for the 616 Dill '88. The 616 Dill was responsible for the 1989 World Record (and very orange) Gordon Thompson 755. Just more food for thought, not really anything useful, as the 616 Dill was a grandfather to the 616 Holland which is the seed that produced the 567.5 Mombert, etc... I think the real scientific knowledge here is to simply grow the seeds from a 616 pound fruit...any 616 pound fruit, lol.

I don't know about you but I'm playing the numbers. I'm growing the 576 Michalic '03 which grew the very orange and very smooth 616 Michalic '04 and I'll cross it with the orange 616 Christensen '01. I there is any validity to numerology, look out!

Man, I think I may have spent a little too much time on the AGGC site over the years. Hurry up Spring! BF

2/10/2007 3:45:56 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Tom,

I am aware of the 579 Nesbit influence. It has been confirmed that Scott's seed was from the Dill's.

The Gancarz brothers, Richard Wright, Bob Ford, Harold Fulp, etc were all growing & competing through-out the '70's at sites like Coatesville & the Cornell Pumpkin Festival. This is long before the Patented Dill seeds were introduced.

Howard was after a prettier & more marketable giant. The New Jersey & Pennsylvania guys were less concerned with looks & more concerned with weight.

The 435 Dill '84 may have found its way into the genetics of the 542 Laemmle '87 prior to the 567.5 Mombert. But it might not have. This is the mystery.

2/10/2007 3:46:41 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Snake Oil, I grew the 576 Michalec 03 back in 2004, and it threw a very dark green squash. It was deep green while growing before turning grayish green in the end.

That seed, coming from an orange mother and a green father, just goes to show how every seed in a fruit is different.

2/10/2007 7:52:52 PM

Il

Tremor, where does the 542 Laemmle '87 come in? I believe the 567 Mombert was a 616 Holland X 609 Laemmle cross.

2/10/2007 10:50:21 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Heidi,

The 542 Leammle '87 grew the 609 Leammle in '89.

2/10/2007 11:11:03 PM

Pumpkintown, SC

Cliff, Chris Michalec has grown several fruit to the 576 size, at least 3 and maybe more. In 2003 alone, he grew both a squash and a pumpkin to 576. I believe the 576 Michalec '03 seed that you probably grew was his Michalec '03*...which up till last year, was my favorite squash seed. I grew it several times and even your dark green to gray late season transition, sounds like it's normal characteristics. I was referring to the orange 576 Michalec from 2003. Again, just food for thought, BF
PS. Nobody likes my numerology, lol.

2/10/2007 11:23:08 PM

Indiana

Nic Welty has a saved email from Scott Cully saying that the 515 was from a Gancarz seed. Which is it? LOL

2/10/2007 11:39:55 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Tom,

Let me check my notes. I spoke with Scott & wrote down what he said. Alan Nesbit remembers too but I haven't talked with him about it in a while.

2/11/2007 8:53:04 AM

Long Island,New York

I know the Dill's read these posts and I also know they keep good records...why havent they said anything? Im curious...I find this interesting stuff.

2/11/2007 9:33:19 AM

That State Up North

Lots of interesting comentary here.
The late Gancarz seeds had potential for good color from what I have seen. The 646 Salentine (two generations selfed from the 816.5 Gancarz '90) produced a long smooth red orange fruit for me.
Other sources of good orange other than 609;
Remember the 710 Brown, 923 Brown, or the 939 Emmons as great orange specimens for their time and there are others.
Concearning Scott Cully, his seed which is the furthest back recorded on the 742 Waterman line was not from the Dills because he grew it before he had received seeds from the Dills. I will look up that record.



Nic Welty

2/11/2007 12:11:21 PM

That State Up North

Info I have from Scott
"I am afraid that I wont be able to be of any help as to the genetics of
the 515.4 that I grew in 1985. I cant recall where I got the seeds. However
I do know that Howard Dill did not send them to me. I did not first speak
with or meet Howard dill until mid September 1985, just prior to the
Topsfield contest."


Nic Welty

2/11/2007 1:16:22 PM

New York

With my many conversations with Scott in the 80's, he had always mentioned the 515.4 (as well as all his other '85 pumpkins) were grown from Dill 400+ seed from packs.

This was just confirmed a few weeks ago during a phone interview. They were purchased at an Agway store in early 1985...not directly from Howard. It was his first serious year growing and he got his start like many did before the internet...at a seed store.

I don't recall him mentioning any additional seed like Gancarz in '85. In late '85, and my first chat with Scott, I was told Dill seeds were used. In a Feb '86 letter (that I still have) Scott mentions growing 15 plants from this seed stock and producing 15 pumpkins over 300 pounds each...quite a feat in those days. The 515.4 certainly looked like a Dill pumpkin...much like Dill's 493.5 from '81...although that doesn't prove much.

As soon as Gancarz introduced the 579.5 (Dill line) into their patch (87) , we start to see a color change into the green this seed produces today. It's easy to see the Dill/Gancarz mix in '87 when they produced a 500 off of the 579.5.

2/12/2007 10:28:24 PM

New York

In case anyone is wondering, the 579.5 was an open pollinated fruit, but it was grown with 2 other 515.4's by themselves in '86. It's most likely a self / sibb / or a mix of the 3-515.4's in the patch that year.

When Gancarz got it in '87 , I feel safe in saying it was a Dill seed stock without any other mix from my or Scott's patch in '85 and '86. That's assuming Scott grew only Dill in 85.

When Ray Waterman grew the '87 Gancarz 500 (579 offspring) in 1988 , the seed produced a 644 (worlds largest but split),478,and 472 on the same plant. These 3 fruit already started to throw the cream color (and small mix of green) that were heavy in the Gancarz line. I can picture that 579.5 plant in Gancarz's patch getting all kinds of different male pollen from all colors under the sun.

2/12/2007 11:09:36 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Thanks for chiming in on this Alan. You are one of the few eye witnesses to history when it was made who does post. LOL

Danny is following this thread. He has provided me some data Howard's "old boxes" but the dates are still sketchy since AGGC records don't go that far back.

You might recall that the Coatesville & Cornell Nature Center provided me the their weigh-off results for this period? Of course there was no hierarchy information so piecing these data into something logical is very risky business. It assumes the fruit were only weighed once (no loss), the grower is still available & willing & able to make recollections, etc. Collins data would need to be considered as well but I don't have it.

2/13/2007 7:49:01 AM

New York

Nic- I think a lot of the confusion over the 515.4 was that everything was so new to Scott and the original intent wasn't to compete for the largest pumpkin. He is one of the very rare examples of where he grew the giant pumpkin first, and then inquired about possible contests after. A little known fact is he didn't even own the pumpkin he grew....his boss had the rights to his world champ 515.4. Scott worked for a large Nursery/vegetable farm in 1985. As a way to market another item on the farm, he was given permission to grow these big pumpkins and see how well they sell. He used a lot of Nursery techniques to grow these pumpkins...such as plastic mulch, hot caps,row covers...and he used many good sprays to control weeds, insects, and disease that was in regular rotation for other crops on the farm. As is the case with other growers at the time, he used knowledge from growing other crops and simply applied them to the pumpkins ,since there was no blueprint to growing these things back then.

2/13/2007 5:39:11 PM

New York

Around mid September, he had two very large pumpkins that stood out from the others in the 40' X 220' patch. He then decided to inquire about any possible contests and tried to locate Howard Dill...remembering the name from the seed packets. He got a hold of Howard , described the size of his two big ones, and Howard got excited about the Circumference numbers Scott provided. Howard had him get in touch with Hugh Wiberg, who was site coordinator for the WPC contest held in Topsfied, MA. The biggest problem Scott had was many stem stress issues with the pumpkins. He was not aware of the problem until many vines were ripped 1/2 off the stem. Fotunately, the stress was relieved on the big ones before they decided to let go. A very large hurricane was hitting the East Coast at the time so at the last minute on 9/26 he picked the biggest pumpkin and weighed it at 531 pounds at home. 2 vweeks later he won the WPC competition with the 515.4. This was his introduction to the pumpkin world....the pumpkins came first, and then info on contests followed. As far as I know, he didn't know about any other growers at the time.

2/13/2007 5:41:39 PM

New York

Of interesting note, Scott appeared on the Johnny Carson show that fall without the pumpkin....his boss decided to keep the pumpkin at the farm due to the increased sales it was providing. On the air, Johnny Carson took out a telephone and said he had Scott's boss phone number. Johnny wanted to call his boss live on the show and give him Hell for not allowing Scott to bring the pumpkin. Scott convinced Johnny it wasn't such a good idea since he was still employeed there. The response would have been funny had it happened. It should be noted that even though Scott didn't own the pumpkin, he was 100% responsible for growing it...it was all Scott. In fact, it was Scott's idea to look into the possibe sale of these big pumpkins. His boss provided the job and land in order for him to accomplish his goals.

This information I provide here isn't from any recent talks with Scott. It's based on memory from the many hours we talked in the 80's and the various letters and notes I took at the time. To the best of my knowledge, everything here is accurate. I wish I took more notes when talking with the Gancarz's, Fulp's, Wright's, Dill's, and others at the time, but most is from memory

2/13/2007 5:44:21 PM