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Greencastle, PA

About a year ago I gave my opinion on the 1068 Wallace being the best seed in the world. My opninion was (and remains) that the 1068 is an excellent seed, but isn't necessarily the best in the world. Of course, that was met with a deal of criticism.
Another grower stated his opinion: "it is the best seed in the world until someone grows another bigger than 1502." Now, one year later, we have seen ten pumpkins weigh over 1502 pounds. The largest of those pumpkins broke the previous record by 187 pounds.
However, 'only' two of those ten pumpkins were grown on the 1068 and Joe Jutras's world record was grown on the 998 Pukos. Another thing I noticed while looking at the parentage of this year's 1500+lb pumpkins was that of those ten, two were grown on seeds that I considered my favorite seeds of 2006. Those were the 1566 Rodonis (on the 1450 Wallace) and the 1556 Werner (on the 1308 McKie).

This post wasn't meant to have an "I told you so" or anti-1068 theme. I just wanted to have a follow-up discussion in light of the amazing achievments of Joe Jutras, Don Young, Dan and Jason McKie, Bill Rodonis, Quinn Werner, Dave and Carol Stelts, Pete Glasier, Thad Starr, and Steve Razo.
What are your thoughts?

10/14/2007 6:48:39 PM

Somerset,Ky

I may also add that out of the top 10 pumpkins that
all are or at least 1/2 1068 Wallace. But for now
the 998 Pukos is Number one in the world until someone
grows one bigger.

John Van Hook

10/14/2007 8:37:06 PM

Somerset,Ky

8 of the top 10

10/14/2007 8:38:24 PM

Eddyz@efirehose.net

I like to look at the bigger picture on the seeds, If your talking about the grand mother of them all, you need to look at the 935 Lloyd, If you look at all the pumpkins over 1300, there are only 3 that don't have 935 lloyd in it.

10/14/2007 9:23:55 PM

Rhode Island

i guess we will just throw away those last 19 1068 seeds and start over again.
thats it, they are all going to be thrown in the woods --- lol
pap

10/14/2007 9:46:29 PM

ordinary,VA

pap dont do that, the 1068 not worth walking to the woods to throw them in. just toss them puppies in bubble and send them my way..tell you what i will even pick-up the postage!!
Ill be happy to take one for the team:0

10/14/2007 10:21:41 PM

Somerset,Ky

935 Lloyd yes indeed put us on big pumpkin road map.

10/14/2007 10:28:51 PM

Key West, FL

Ya Pap, they're worthless but they sure do taste good. Send them my way. I'll cover the cost of postage and the bubble pack plus $10 for your time.

10/14/2007 10:31:53 PM

Minnesota

I will even draw, woods, trees and anything else you want on the bubble envelope I send you for them.

10/14/2007 11:16:17 PM

Long Island,New York

Party in the woods between the road and Pap's patch today at 2PM.....BYOB

10/15/2007 6:39:23 AM

Rhode Island

agree on the 935 Lloyd. was a great pumpkin and /or pollinator thats for sure.
the traces of 935 now are pretty watered down but yes, that heavy alligator snout ( blossom end for the new growers ) is all 935. its all meat if you get one.
pap

10/15/2007 7:38:27 AM

Greencastle, PA

lol, pap.

Why does everyone keep overlooking this part: "...the 1068 is an excellent seed..."?

Eddie is right about the 935. the 1385 Daletas and 1314 Beauchemin are two 1300+ that I know of without the 935 in their backgrounds. What is the third?

10/15/2007 7:39:28 AM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

I'll still grow it, pap. Can I send you a bubble? ;-)

10/15/2007 10:01:10 AM

Colorado

this discussion is flawed because everyones definition of best seed is a little different. Personnally I like to factor consistency in with the best seed title. Its hard to equate consis., because theres no statistics on the duds. As great as the aggc site is ,most of the duds in a seed stock arent recorded. P.s. paps if you do toss those 19 1068's out could you let me know when and in which trash can lol

10/15/2007 10:18:43 AM

Eddyz@efirehose.net

The 1301 Whittier is 935 free

10/15/2007 10:25:12 AM

Minnesota

A New Catagory, Best Seed Of The Year. Send Me Two 1068's And I'll Comvince My Neighbor To Grow It Also......

10/15/2007 10:29:45 AM

SF Bay Area, California

When you're talking top PROVEN seeds you need to look at more than one offspring to properly rank them. I like to use the average weight of the top five offspring. This gives a better picture of the seed's depth. Quite a few seed stocks throw an odd-ball big one and that's it, so consistancy must also be factored in.

There are quite a few compelling seeds out there that show awesome promise, but I don't believe the 1068 has been knocked off it's roost as the king of the patch yet!

10/15/2007 11:32:06 AM

Mt Vernon Ky

pap offer them all a 1068 and see how many trun it down

10/15/2007 2:39:31 PM

Minnesota

O'k, I'll be the guy in the woods with the team giant pumpkin uniform waiting to catch them!

10/15/2007 6:12:33 PM

ordinary,VA

what?
who is overlooking the 1068 as being a excellent seed?

there is a whole gang of us now out here in the woods waiting for pap to come outside.this could get ugly:)


the thing about it "hey you" just sounds like a backhanded comment..it might not be. just reads that way to me..

see i hear it all the time." your not a bad looking guy-you being fat and all" :)


when is the first seed auction?

10/15/2007 6:47:09 PM

Minnesota

I'll be the guy in front of everybody! (in the woods)

10/15/2007 7:15:06 PM

Eastern Pennsylvania

In his original post, hey you claims that the 1068 is an excellent seed. He's not talking crap, he addressed the fact that it's a great seed. He is just saying what we all know is true. The 1068 replaced the 723 Bobier and likewise, the 1068 will be replaced by another even fatter and uglier chick eventually.

10/15/2007 9:10:51 PM

Greencastle, PA

Thank you for clarifying that, Orangeneck.

Cojoe has made an excellent point. What should we say qualifies a seed as the best? Certainly there are specific qualities that we desire.
Cojoe mentioned consistency. That is a good example
Should we take this to mean consistency in the offspring's weight alone, or in all qualities of the offspring?

I consider fruit shape, weight relative to the estimate, and the geographical area(s) in which a seed performs well when I think about seed quality.

Is this consistent with others' thoughts?

10/15/2007 10:20:27 PM

ordinary,VA

I apologize if i mis-read your post.

your statement on shape,over the chart,geographical area, are very good points. all of those should go into consideration when choosing a seed to grow.but to me not the greatest seed.just my opinion.

my point, its still a weight contest.so the seed that grows the heaviest pumpkins wins in my book.

we go every year to the weigh-offs.we all want to grow the heaviest pumpkin we can grow.

before this year which seed grew the top ten heaviest pumpkins?

only time will tell which seed will be the best seed of all time... maybe..
in five or six generations will we look back and see how much 1068 we have in our pumpkins or 935 or 567 etc,etc.

anyway growing giant pumpkins is funnnnnn.best of luck to all growers in 08'

10/15/2007 11:07:06 PM

southwest MO

How about the avg. of top 5 1068 and top 5 998.6 from THIS year... WOW

10/16/2007 9:36:59 AM

Colorado

weve been argueing over which seed is best(1068 wallace and 998.6 pukos) since the 1068 is played out and the 998 only had 220 seeds in it,were going to have to find the next great seed soon.any predictions on which seed( from seed stocks that are at least one year old) will take over the title in the future?

10/16/2007 12:09:34 PM

ordinary,VA

cojoe now that's the question.
looks like people are looking for the 998x1068 and 1068x998 crosses that were made this year.
but form seed stock at least one year old?
good question..what will be the "hot seed" in 08'?

10/16/2007 12:43:33 PM

Eddyz@efirehose.net

If you look at the top 10 pumpkins from 07, you can see they came from 9 different seeds.
Get the Heavy hitters to grow it and it's your next hot seed.
The Rhode Island gang have this all figured out, They decide collectively on the seed line they are going to use and they plant it.
Not only do they develop great seed lines, they know what 6 or 8 plants of the same seed stock do, they understand the plants better, and come out with top genetic lines.

10/16/2007 1:38:53 PM

Greencastle, PA

Ed has made a good point: “my point, its still a weight contest.so the seed that grows the heaviest pumpkins wins in my book.”

I mentioned shape for this reason: shape plays a huge role in the potential weight of a fruit. Flaws such as dill rings and concave blossoms seem to increase the chance of a fruit's splitting and decrease the weight that the walls might support. Of coure, we don't know to what extent.
The 1469 Checkon was able to reach an incredible size despite it's sag lines (as Larry calls them). However, while we don't know the extent to which dill rings limit pumpkin weights, I doubt that any of us consider them beneficial.
There have also been some large pumpkins with concave blossom ends. The 1468 Richards is a good example. Therefore we also can't be certain of the extent to which this quality limits size, although I doubt that any of us consider it beneficial.

Regarding geographical area: how can we call a seed the best in the world if it has actually only proven itself to be the best in a specific climate or region?


to be continued...

10/16/2007 1:53:12 PM

Greencastle, PA

Let’s expound upon the implications of Ed’s point.
We must make three deductions:

I.
(1)A particular seed (i.e. Joe Jutras’ 998 Pukos) is affected by variables that profoundly influence the weight of its offspring.

(2)The potential of a particular seed can only be achieved under conditions ideal for that particular seed.

(3)The ideal conditions for each particular seed are unknown.

(4)A particular seed cannot knowingly be grown under its ideal conditions.

Therefore, the potential of a particular seed cannot be known.

II.
(1)The notion that a group of seeds (i.e. all seeds from the 1068, 998, etc.) is the best is a generalization.

(2)Generalizations are derived from knowledge of particulars.

(3) The potential of a particular seed cannot be known.

Therefore, the potential of a group of seeds cannot be known.

III.
(1)    The group of seeds with the greatest potential for producing heavy pumpkins is the best group of seeds.

(2)    The potential of a group of seeds cannot be known.

Therefore, the best group of seeds cannot be known.


Maybe we're on to something...

10/16/2007 2:36:37 PM

Eddyz@efirehose.net

Hey You
Further to your comments and to back up what I said, Yes the 1469 was incredible, Therfore reason for the Wallaces to use the 1354 Checkon, Larry new its potential, so did the Wallaces, Give the 1502 another year.
Geographic region, means nothing, this is about weight as you say. The heaviest pumpkin period, it doesn't matter where it's grown. The mother of the record holder will always be the best seed out there, until it gets beat.

10/16/2007 2:43:00 PM

ordinary,VA

Tom you make some good points.

the 998 was proven in the South.rare to see a thousand pound pumpkin grown that far South.
Sam Lovelace grew the heaviest pumpkin in the South on a 998.His 1178.9 smashed the N.C. State record.

I agree with Eddy Z last post "the mother of the record holder will always be the best seed out there,until it gets beat"

10/16/2007 4:40:03 PM

Greencastle, PA

Eddy,
We may believe the mother of the record is the best, but my deductions show that it is impossible to know which is the best.
About that 1502; Larry Checkon grew one over 1000 with it and crossed it with Gerry's 998 Pukos that grew one over over 1400lbs. Keep your eye on that seed. That's a bit of a digression though...
Tom

10/16/2007 4:52:40 PM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

Interesting observations "hey you"....Tom is it? Proven seeds get grown heavily, because they are that.."proven". Once they are proven...growers see the potential they have, and want to grow them. We don't know the potential of many seeds, because they don't get grown....or only a few get grown. They RI growers gave the 1068 Wallace a shot, and it's been a huge success. I wonder how many 998 Pukos seeds would have been grown, if Quinn Werner hadn't grown a huge one off it last year. There are a number of seeds that have been grown heavily in the past, but it seems the 1068 and 998 are quite special in how they perform overall(of course better growing methods could be a significant factor as well). The best seed in the world could be one no one has tried yet. Thanks for the input on this interesting topic.

10/16/2007 6:34:43 PM

Eddyz@efirehose.net

Tom, that's all we have to go on, is information at hand, You will never find out if a seed is better by looking at it on paper, It has to be grown, and proven. It could very well be that the 1354 Checkon will be the Mother of all seeds. But it needs to be grown and produce a 1700 plus pumpkin, and it could.
Eddy

10/16/2007 8:13:53 PM

Greencastle, PA

I wouldn't be surprised to see an 1800lb pumpkin from the 1354. It's really unfortunate that it didn't have a better second year; it seems to have fallen from favor amongst many despite its potential.

10/16/2007 11:31:24 PM

Eddyz@efirehose.net

Very true Tom, we are a fickel bunch, every year we're out chasing a new Rainbow, Myself included, and we're shelfing many, many fantastic seeds for the Holy grail and all we end up with is a farm chicken.
getting late must sleep now, Good discussion Tom
Eddy

10/16/2007 11:59:26 PM

Ohio

until I see numbers that has passed up what the 1068 Wallace has done in the last 4 years then Id think about it, the 1068 is still the best seed out there in my opinion.

10/17/2007 12:05:48 AM

Greencastle, PA

Brooks,
The problem is that if the sole criteria is weight, it is impossible for us to know which the best seed is.

It seems that we are considering two different questions. Those are: "Which seed has done the best?" and "Which seed is the best?"

The 1068 has done the best at producing large pumpkins (when considering weight only). Thus, many assume that this implies that it is the best. However, I think that this is a false conclusion because saying definitively which seed is the best (when considering weight only) requires a comparison of seeds' potentials. The deductions I posted prove that such a comparison is not possible.

10/17/2007 9:58:01 AM

Greencastle, PA

Eddy,
Is this the kind of discussion you missed?
Tom

10/17/2007 9:58:57 AM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

Tom,
According to your deductions, we'll never know the best seed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the 1068 Wallace is the most proven seed, and that's the best we can go by as far as I know.

10/17/2007 11:55:01 AM

Greencastle, PA

Doug,
You are correct on your first two points. However, the main point of my deductions is that weight production is insufficient as the sole measure of seed quality. That's far from saying that it's the best we can go by. The necessary inferrence from that point is that we need to consider more than weight production when considering seed quality.
Tom

10/17/2007 12:27:36 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

I probably sound like a ninny when I constantly bring this up in discussions like this, but... Fact: Every seed in a fruit is different. By that I mean, each and every 1068 seed is (was) different. Different genes in fact!

To the extent that the genes are similar (or at least producing consistent results) is a factor in judging a seed. That is, if one 1068 did something, how likely would I be able to replicate that accomplishment with another 1068?

That's why Vince's metric of an average of weights grown on a particular seed has merit. The downside is that there is no practical way to judge the environmental factor. If I grew a 1068, I might get, pick a number,... 900 pounds out of it. That shouldn't diminish the worthiness of the seed, but is a reflection of my current abilities as a grower. A top-5 or top-10 average might be the best we can do.

10/17/2007 12:58:04 PM

Eddyz@efirehose.net

Yes this is the stuff that brings out ideas, right or wrong. Involvement by other growers on these topics help everyone.
I absolutely agree with Cliff's comments.
We will never have everyone agree with, "Which is the best seed". as everyone has a seperate opinion, But to get closer to finding it out, there needs to be more collective growing like Al Eaton and Jack Larue did with the 1446 and 1420. But it can't stop at one generation, it needs to be done each year.
My views on the Best seed, goes back several generation, back to the 935 Lloyd, because without it, I don't believe we would be where we are.
When did the weights jump substantially, After the 935 Lloyd, and I know, although watered down in most cases, it still has a presence.
The 1068 is the seed of the Day, will the 998 pass it, who knows, only time will tell, but both of these lines have the 935 in it's background.

10/17/2007 1:27:27 PM

Colorado

eddy ,I agree with you about the 935 Lloyd. The thick walled features ,size and vigour it introduced contributes to most of the big ones we grow today.the 898 knauss is another big player in todays seeds(its a mutt it has a little of everything in its family tree)

10/18/2007 11:52:48 AM

Littleton, Colo

I wanna "Grow like Joe" ! :)

10/20/2007 12:06:46 AM

South Bloomfield, Ohio

The best seed in the world IS the one which has not yet been grown.

10/20/2007 1:25:19 AM

Colorado

hey biz,you got to set your aim higher than that.I agree with giant p.d..Half the fun of this hobby is trying to figure which seed in hand is the silver bullet.

10/20/2007 4:12:30 PM