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Adams County

Just wondering which would be best? Cross the 1446.5 Werner x 1248 Ford, and the 1248 Ford x 1446.5 Werner. Or just self them.
whats the differance between self and sib ?

11/29/2007 9:07:50 PM

Santa Rosa, CA

I think I can help with the last part of your question. "Self" is when the male pollen comes from the same plant. (Self-pollination) For example, you pollinate a female on your 1446.5 Werner from male pollen from that plant. "Sib" is when the male pollen comes from another 1446.5 Werner (in this case). You would need two (2) 1446.5 Werner plants to get a sib. However, you only need one 1446.5 Werner to do a self.

Perhaps a genetics expert will be able to answer the first part of your question. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

11/29/2007 10:29:12 PM

President - GPC

You could actually do both if you grew two pumpkins on each plant, depending upon if you want size or genetics.....

11/30/2007 8:43:16 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Two comments & one observation:

"Genetic crosses" (two on a plant) end up small & rarely get grown by anyone other than the grower.

Selfed seeds (other than 735) are rarely grown at all.

For a long time I felt that long lines of selfing & sibbing were necessary to "weed out" the bad traits then two dissimilar lines could be crossed into a sort of "vigor-cross". However looking back into the hierarchy trees of today's hot seeds seems to bust that theory.

11/30/2007 9:12:10 AM

Cross them and growum big, with both of those seeds producing big fruit and the chance that the "heavy" will come through in that cross from the 1248 you'll interest some folks in growing that seed next year,,,

11/30/2007 10:52:29 AM

Long Island,New York

Steve skirted around the key points but failed to put the nail in the coffin.....based upon the growing practices the big guys have today we will never know what the real story is...we have some data but we dont have the data we need to analyze and get the answer to the question. It doesn't matter what the little guys do because they are "little guys". Thats just the way it is....and I don't see it changing.

11/30/2007 11:50:33 AM

Windsor, Ontario, Canada

Book 3 discusses F1/F2 hybridization, so if you dont have the books, here is a little primer (directly from book):

"Begin with a productive seed that has done well for you or others in your region (has been very consistent at producing large offspring). When planting this seed, some flowers should be self-pollinated, and others on the plant, cross-pollinated. The cross-pollination should use males from a plant which is most genetically different from your original productive seed. Select this male cross pollinator based on something you feel the original producer is lacking. This cross pollination produces an F1 hybrid. This F1 is then crossed with the self-pollinated original producer seeds, or the original producer itself.

This F2, should be a consistent seed with most of the traits of the original, and some new traits from the cross-pollinator. This F2 can then be used as the original productive seed to repeat the process.

11/30/2007 12:26:57 PM

Windsor, Ontario, Canada

This type of breeding can not only be used to introduce new traits, like strength in the blossom to prevent BES in lines where it can be an issue, but also to further breed size/shape into particular genetic lines. This will also help to further the "lifetime" of top producers. I wonder how many have found a selfed 1068, and a 1068 x ??? and then crossed. Results? Potential for a very similar 1068.

So, to produce any F2 hybrid, you must use a self (or original, which depending on seed...1068...may be hard to come by), so there is definitely a time and a place for it.

Whether or not creating an F2 is the best way to go, or simply stick with an F1 hybrid and not bother with the backcross, is a good question. Tremors opinion regarding his old thoughts and new thoughts when looking into hierarchy trees, would give credit to sticking with a series of F1.

How many have done a 5 year plan using the F2 technique discussed in book 3, and if not, I suppose there is no way to say whether it works really well or not.

In the meantime, I am planning to try this technique over the next few seasons using several good seeds, or seeds with good potential. Several F2 will be created, and used to create more F1s.....and so on.

To name a few:

1093 Hunt (1068 Wallace x 842 Eaton)
1142 Van Kooten (1066 Vezzolo x 1367.5 Rose)
776.6 Hain (1012.5 Papez x 1236 Eaton)
735 Pukos (846 Calai x SELF)
659 Spada (1420.5 Larue x 1502 Wallace)

Also, the 1097.5 Beachy, 1068 Wallace, and others will come into play in this plan, but the exact details, will be left out.

11/30/2007 12:34:29 PM

Windsor, Ontario, Canada

I mean, the 1068 will come into play in other places as well. Not only in the 1093 Hunt.

11/30/2007 12:37:43 PM

good luck with that idea

11/30/2007 1:05:24 PM

Ohio

Look up on the AGGC and see how many self seeds has been grown, not very many, its not because they don't grow good its just because no one wants to grow a selfed seed if they can grow the original seed instead, is my guess. One of the reason I did a 1068 x self cross is because there isn't but a handful of seeds out there left to grow. I think your best shot at getting a self seed grown is when there is very few of the original seeds left. 3 OR 4 years ago how many people would you think would do a selfed 1068 cross? None? And if they did do a selfed 1068 cross the year after the original seed came out how many people would grow that selfed if there was still a ton of 1068's to go around? Id say the only person to grow that selfed seed is the grower who grew it, so maybe one out of 10,000 growers?,lol.

11/30/2007 4:42:37 PM

Adams County

Thanks for all the help.
Not sure if im dazed or confused, but I will try to figure it out. see ya in the patch..

11/30/2007 7:35:28 PM

Adams County

I think I should cross em, and hang on .

11/30/2007 10:02:15 PM

Springfield, Missouri

hey Just Bill just wondering were you got 1248 ford I would really like to get one email logan_d@live.com

12/12/2007 9:32:42 PM

Adams County

Logan, I won it on Todd Friermoods auction.

12/14/2007 8:03:43 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Brooks, I think you boiled it down fairly well, 1068 self's and sibs, as well as 998 self's and sibs will become more and more popular, as the original seed availability goes down & the weight of progeny goes up!!!! I think you nailed this one!!! Peace, Wayne

12/14/2007 10:45:59 PM

Mt Vernon Ky

my wife done a 792 wolf which is 1407 x self this year and she got her best and she self it too

12/15/2007 5:01:43 PM