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Pinedale, WY

I just found out today that my pumpkin that I sold 212 lbs.(1086 Holland x 809 Ornskov) had no seeds. I knew Don Young's big one was seedless too. I would be nice if everyone that has had a seedless pumpkin would post the cross. Maybe there is a combination or a gene cross that does this.

12/11/2007 3:43:23 PM

Cincinnati,OH

I grew the 1105 Glasier 06 (1068 Wallace x sibling) My 333lber had no viable seeds and was well over 80 days old.
I know of 1 other grower who grew the 1105 and had over 500 seeds. I also grew the 1450 Wallace and my pumpkin had about 130 seeds.

12/11/2007 7:35:03 PM

Berlin,mi.(zuhlke2@hotmail.com)

MY 830 Zuhlke 06(1180 daletas x 810 dill) only had 4 seeds
My 956 zuhlke 07(1317 bobier x 1193 rose) only had 5 seeds.

12/11/2007 7:48:42 PM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

Last year I grew the 1233.5 Reiss X 603.5 Muller.....it was seedless.

12/11/2007 8:29:53 PM

Eastern Pennsylvania

Doug- damn that sucks

12/11/2007 9:01:57 PM

Ohio

Something about that 1180 Steve, thats about the 3rd or 4th 1180 I have heard that had no seeds or a low seed count. One thing for sure though it grows big pumpkins!

12/11/2007 9:22:27 PM

Here are my low points in seed counts:

966.5 Leland '06 (1112 Daletas x 723 Bobier): 12 seeds
761.5 Leland DMG '06 (916 Golat x 723 Bobier): 4 seeds
523 Leland DMG '06 (1157 Daletas x 666 Hester): 0 seeds
603 Leland DMG '06 (1150 Daletas x 723 Bobier): 0 seeds
647.5 Leland DMG '06 (1142 LaRue x 1370 Rose): 0 seeds
829 Leland '06 (1028 Sherwood x 723 Bobier): 0 seeds
1061.5 Leland '06 (535.5 Leland x 723 Bobier): 0 seeds

All of these were hammered with pollen, so I don't think one can make a correlation between the pollinator and the number of viable seeds. But given the diverse genetic background represented above on the maternal side, I don't know that I could draw a correlation to the female, either.

What sticks out like a sore thumb, of course, is the year. In addition to having a ton of seedless pumpkins, I was splitting everything left and right. Obviously, some pumpkins are more genetically prone to light blossom ends and splitting, but could the environmental or nutritional factors exasperating the splits have something to do with the low seed counts as well?

Nature or nurture, I guess the question applies to pumpkins as well as people. I do not believe it to be purely genetic. And given my seed counts last year compared to every other year I've grown, I suspect the nurture side of the equation has a lot to do with it.

12/11/2007 10:33:19 PM

southwest MO

When you folks are finding no or only a few seeds is the case that there is a bunch of thin white blanks or are these missing 2?

12/11/2007 11:06:55 PM

Pinedale, WY

I had nothing in mine. It looked like someone had already been in there and cleaned it out.

12/11/2007 11:29:29 PM

Cincinnati,OH

All were thin white blanks

12/12/2007 12:03:40 AM

Pumpkintown, SC

Parthenocarpic Pumpkins...Natures way of saying, "Most of them would have just sat in seed boxes anyway"

12/12/2007 12:13:08 AM

Pinedale, WY

My first pumpkin though, I was looking forward to planting a seed from it and starting my own genetics. Oh well, I got a bunch of good seeds from you fine people, so I will just wait another year for my own.

12/12/2007 2:01:35 AM

Ohio

wow Nilbert! After seeing your 2006 pumpkins and all that where seedless, I take back that it can be caused by some kinda of genetic defect. That is truly amazing and unheard of for me9untill now) that that many pumpkins coming from one patch had no seeds. I'm just curious on what your soil reading was that year?

12/12/2007 4:14:20 AM

Berlin,mi.(zuhlke2@hotmail.com)

Neal, looking at that list of yours for 2006. It appears that the 723 might have had very poor male pollen. I don't know what to think about the others. Did you have a hot pollinating period that year?

12/12/2007 6:21:16 AM

President - GPC

My cross of the 500 Wallace X 1502 Wallace had 5 good seeds, the rest were blanks and their were lots of them.

12/12/2007 9:01:51 AM

southwest MO

Good observation on the 723 Steve. I had a 950.4 Boyton (845 self) I tried again and again to use as a pollenator 1 year but none of the females would set.

12/12/2007 9:27:18 AM

Farmerville, Louisiana

What was the Manganese levels in the patch where these pumpkins were grown. Manganese level is important for fertile seeds. Just my 2 cents worth.

12/12/2007 10:25:08 AM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

I have three words: Too much nitrate.

For those of you seeing problems, can you comment on additions of manure, and when?

12/12/2007 10:31:03 AM

Deer Park WA

Our 1112.5 "06" was an 1180 Daletas and it had over 500 seeds. It has been our observation that when our seed counts were low the pumpkins had been pollinated in (A)high temperature conditions, and (B) we had applied an application of Daconil whith in 3 days of pollination. could be a fluke but of the 4 seedles/low seed count pumpkins we have had over the last five years that is the only thing we notice that thay had in common....

Interesting post, thanks

~Gerry

12/12/2007 11:21:55 AM

Pinedale, WY

My manganese level is 4 ppm.

12/12/2007 12:19:59 PM

Farmerville, Louisiana

I think that that is waaaaaaaaaay toooooooooooo low needs to be around 50-75 ppm.Need to find out from a more reliable source. I'm a rookie comparing notes on information that I have read and that has been shared with me!

12/12/2007 12:43:13 PM

Jericho Vermont

Two years ago my Manganese was 9ppm and my lowest seed count was 465 good seeds. I would really like to get a better grasp on why so many low seed counts as well but I don't think it is as simple as one element in our soils. Would be interesting to compare soil results from everyone with low numbers although I have heard of pumpkins growing side by side in a patch can go from 0 to 600 seeds. Makes for an interesting winter topic.

12/12/2007 2:39:21 PM

President - GPC

Ah, my nitrate levels for the 500 Wallace patch had to be way high...could explain it, I had lots of wilting in this patch and had to apply lots of water when the sun shined and real slow side vine growth. Other plants growing in this patch too were observed to be wilted also so I know it wasnt just the pumpkin plant, it was all the year old manure I put in the slave patch in the fall, over 2 yards into a 500sf area.

12/12/2007 3:08:33 PM

President - GPC

Ron Rahe,
Barry Todd said he had a good seed count in his 1105 Glasier.

12/12/2007 3:09:35 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

I was once trying to make a list of "suspects", but here goes from memory:

1. Too early in the day
2. Too late
3. Too hot
4. Poor pollen application skill (?)
5. Nutritional deficiencies
a. Too much nitrate (or nitrogen?)
b. Low manganese
6. Incompatible males/females
7. Eating too much garlic the night before
(That last one is my personal favorite.)

What else?

Has anyone ever seen a female "take" and grow to maturity if it was totally prevented from receiving pollen? If not, then I think we could say that pollination is essential to fruit maturation, even though there might be some other factor preventing seed development. And the two, fruit maturation and seed development are not necessarily linked.

12/12/2007 4:02:06 PM

Pinedale, WY

I don't know that much about "pumpkin sex" but if you get enough pollen to make the pumpkin grow, then shouldn't that be sufficent for making seeds inside?

12/12/2007 4:45:06 PM

Cincinnati,OH

Hey Wiz that's what I heard. The 1450 and 1105 where the same cross. The plants were in the same patch. I tried over 15 times to get a controlled set on the 1105 in all different temps. Manganese 12 ppm. The male flowers on the 1105 had nearly no pollen and were a greenish color almost like they wanted to be leaves. They stayed open well over a week. I think the particular seed I grew just got wired wrong. The plant was killer. The stump and vines were notably larger than the 1450 plant. Plenty of pics in my diary. I could check on my Daconil applications.

12/12/2007 6:09:04 PM

First off, great post by Pumpkin Pastor broaching the topic of seed counts.

Second, I would love to find a "silver bullet" for seed counts, but I don't know that I believe there is one.

Now, there were a couple possible explanations offered above, which I will address below.

Manure application: manure was applied in fall of 2005. Highest rate of application was in the area of the 666 Hester, which produced the 963 Leland which yielded 227 viable seeds. A modest seed count, but given that my highest seed count in 2006 was 351, I'll take it. So I don't think the manure was the culprit.

With regards to the 723 pollen: the second highest seed count I had for my controlled crosses in 2006 was the 529 Leland '06 (1024 Pukos x 723 Bobier) with 312 seeds. So I don't think that was the culprit, either. Plus, if the 723 were "shooting blanks," I would think (and I could be wrong), that the female just plain wouldn't set. It just happens that a lot of my "seedless wonders" were pollinated by the 723 because I tried to pollinate most of my fruits that year with the 723.

On an interesting note, the second highest seed count I had that year was on an open pollinated fruit (723 Bobier x open) with only 329 seeds. So even the bees weren't getting it done.

Don't know about the Mn, but I will have to pull out my soil report and check. I will also have to see if it is significantly different from this year, when I pulled over 700 seeds from one of my fruits.

Anyhow, a lot of good suggestions I will have to delve into. I certainly haven't ruled out operator error! :)

12/12/2007 9:10:44 PM