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Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

I know this has been bantered about before. Some folks only grow white seeds, other don't seem to care.

Why?

Here's why I'm wondering. For the first time ever, I harvested white seeds this year.

I've noticed the 1101 Northrup is a white seed & that Bill seems to like white seeds. The 500 Northrup is tan. We grew the 500 this year (731 Jepsen/Luce) & the seeds we collected were also tan.

We also grew the 981 Zunino (tan seed), crossed it with the 500 Northrup & the resulting seeds are white. This was a first for me. I've never harvested anything but tan seeds before now.

Who wants to wager what color the 571 progeny's seeds will be?

Just to stir things up a little; for years (1970's?) white seeds would indicate a green fruit & tan indicated orange.

12/12/2007 12:07:59 PM

Western NY

my 500 northrup produced white seeds for me.


here's an even better one - 814 and 792 Wolf were grown on the same plant, and both were self pollinated. Clarence grew both the 814 and 792 this year. one had white seeds, the other was tan.

12/12/2007 12:19:58 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

I was afraid the thread would go this way. LOL

12/12/2007 12:26:38 PM

Boulder County Colorado USA planet Earth

My ccw 399 o7 grew all white seeds. but the germ rates were really bad.

12/12/2007 12:37:50 PM

Berlin,mi.(zuhlke2@hotmail.com)

810 Dill is white. I did a self cross and a 670 Daigle cross. Both pumpkins had tan seeds.1101 Northrup is white. I did a 1101 x self and they are white. 1125 Frantz is white. I did 1101 x 1125 and 1125 x 1101 and they are white. now the kicker. I took my 621 zuhlke(1101 x self) crossed it with 1101 again and guess what, tan seeds. now go figure.

12/12/2007 12:40:32 PM

Berlin,mi.(zuhlke2@hotmail.com)

I forgot to add that I think your 571 progeny will be very orange.

12/12/2007 12:45:02 PM

Indiana

I can only think of a case or 2 where the seed color outcome was different than could be expected. It is far more likely that a mixup of pollinations is to blame than some rogue gene that we dont know about.

white is recessive denoted by lowercase t (t)
tan is dominant denoted by uppercase T (T)

To keep this simple, we are assuming all seeds are selfed in the previous generation.

That said, a tan seed can have both a tan and a white gene as its parents(Tt), meaning the offspring can be variable. A selfed white seed (tt)only produces white seeds.

If you cross a white seed with a tan seed, there are 2 possible outcomes
-if the tan seed is homozygous tan(TT), the offspring will be tan every time.
-if the tan seed is heterozygous tan(Tt), 50% of the offspring will be tan, and the remaining 50% will be white

It is interesting to note on the heterozygous tan(Tt) that even tho the phenotypic (visual appearance) characteristics may be tan, the genotypic (genetic) characteristics are one gene of each the tan and the white.

If you cross a white seed(t) with a white seed(t), the offspring (tt)will be white 100% of the time.

If you cross a tan seed with another tan seed, there are a few more options
-homozygous tan(TT)x homozygous tan(TT)=homozygous tan(TT)
-heterozygous tan(Tt)x homozygous tan(TT)=50% of the offspring are homozygous tan TT) and the remaining 50% are heterozygous tan (Tt)
-heterozygous tan(Tt)x heterozygous tan (Tt)=50% are heterozygous tan (Tt) 25% are homozygous tan (TT), and the remaining 25% of the offspring are white(tt)

Hopefully this sheds light on the subject matter. This is simple punnett square theory. Below is a link to shed more light on the theory and calculations.

http://www.ndsu.edu/instruct/mcclean/plsc431/mendel/mendel1.htm

12/12/2007 2:18:24 PM

Indiana

One other important note. The color of the seeds in your pumpkin for 2007 was determined from the male and female parents of the seed you planted.

This is not to be confused with the pollen that you pollinated your pumpkin with in 2007.

The pollen from 2007 will affect the color of the seeds in the offspring from your 2007 seed stock.

12/12/2007 2:21:37 PM

President - GPC

Thanks Tom, this is a really great explanation!

12/12/2007 2:24:51 PM

Jericho Vermont

Interesting thread. Here are two seeds for you.

670 Daigle (tan seed) 810 Dill x 1230 Daletas
710 Companion (white seed) 810 Dill x 1016 Daletas

Both 1230 and 1016 were grown on the 705 Stelts. You would think these seeds would look alike.
John

12/12/2007 2:31:40 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Going back a couple of years...common theory was?...white seeds make orange pkns...any truth to this? Thanks, Peace, Wayne

12/12/2007 3:50:09 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Or in general...is there a correlation from seed color, to pkn color? Peace, Wayne

12/12/2007 3:50:52 PM

Me.

I also grew the 500 Northrup which produced tan seeds and the 1101 Northrup gave me nice white seeds..

12/12/2007 4:05:14 PM

Long Island,New York

Ok Tom....I had 4 fruit on my 845 Bobier...two were pollinated by the same 898knauss....one fruit had white seeds one had tan. answer that one. Same plants pollinated in a 3 day period.

12/12/2007 4:53:46 PM

Ohio

G ,you need to tie your flowers back tighter, a bee got in there some how that was in another part of your patch, shesh thats a easy one.lol

12/12/2007 8:13:28 PM

Indiana

I dont feel any need to explain that to you G....LOL

12/12/2007 11:11:34 PM

Long Island,New York

Here's my interpretation: Brooks....lol...huh? If a bee got in there and that caused the seeds to change color that would likely mean all open pollinated pkns would have a mix of white and tan seeds.......ever see one?

Tom....that means you dont know.

12/13/2007 2:51:44 PM

Ohio

G, yikgmhub juojfyu what you mean huh?

12/13/2007 5:26:48 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

OK...We've learned that seeds do strange things that can be explained...but not easily without Tom's lesson. We also know that Glenn doesn't like bees...I think.

But why do some growers prefer to grow white seds?

12/13/2007 10:55:47 PM

Ohio

lol! Glenns a bee hater Steve,lol

12/14/2007 6:38:00 AM

Pumpkintown, SC

"But why do some growers prefer to grow white seds?"
For the same reason some growers prefer to grow seeds based on specific growers names...

12/14/2007 6:46:08 PM

That State Up North

Memories of some small white seeds that grew very well.

That factor aside, when planting hundreds of giant pumpkins I have generally been happier with ease of germination and initial seedling growth from white seeds. If taken under scientific scrutiny this observation wouldn't hold up, and is even less likely to result in larger fruit.

But grower preference is important to determining what gets planted, and is important when considering the dynamics of our hobby's population genetics.

12/14/2007 10:12:52 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

I can see why white seeds would germinate more reliably. The woody tan cover isn't in the way of moisture & the expanding cotyledons don't encounter much resistance. Perhaps this is the only reason?

12/14/2007 11:05:20 PM

Indiana

That means I dont know? LOL I'd trust you had vines crossed in the patch or a plant virus before I believed you had 2 fruit on the same plant with mature seeds one had white seeds and one tan.

This coming from the same guy that argued we couldnt predict fruit color scientifically.

Your drive for chaos and exceptions is amazing Glenn LOL

12/15/2007 1:34:30 AM

Long Island,New York

Unbelievable !

12/15/2007 7:52:54 AM

western PA

One of mine had seeds that were half-and half. They kinda look like candy corn, lol. Anyone else have them?

12/15/2007 9:07:48 AM

Roselle, IL GJGEM@sbcglobal.net

My 988 seed -670 x 1450. Had that candy corn look. White with a light brown swirl.

12/15/2007 9:45:18 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Half & half? I would suspect they were all supposed to be tan & the white ones are likely not viable. Seeds that never completely mature (common) are usually white & papery but unfortunately also lack an embryo.

Do these seeds feel viable?

12/15/2007 10:26:45 AM

Roselle, IL GJGEM@sbcglobal.net

Yeah they are solid. I think the 1450 had a similar look. I will post a pic in my diary

12/15/2007 12:09:46 PM

Ohio

Steve, I grew a 621 Companion (961.0 Daletas x 1260.4 Weir) this year, and the seeds from them are tan/white with the swirl effect to them. I grew two pumpkins on this plant( they ended up porch pumpkins,no care)but both pumpkins where bright orange and they both produced the same colored tan/white swirl color seeds.

12/15/2007 2:16:01 PM

western PA

Yep, mine are large, fat, and feel quite solid. But I wouldn't say they are swirled, there is a definite line where the tan quits.

12/15/2007 6:02:10 PM

Adams County

were any record breakers seeds white ?

12/15/2007 6:16:24 PM

Pumpkintown, SC

Hey Brooks, if you have any pictures of those 621 spawned porch dwellers, could you shoot me a couple? BF SCpumpkinman@aol.com

12/15/2007 7:06:19 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Uh hmm, My 500 Northrup seeds in the 1134 Landry 07, were all white. GEEZE

12/15/2007 7:42:03 PM

Roselle, IL GJGEM@sbcglobal.net

Sorry Russ, white seeds or tan seeds are out. Melado seeds are in.

12/15/2007 10:54:01 PM