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Ohio

How many males do you guys use to pollinate your female? In the past I would use as many as I could get from the same plant, the more pollin the better I always thought. But here in the last couple years I only use one male flower per female. I dont know how much of this is true but I got the impression the more males you use the more type diffrent type pumpkins you will grow, and thats using pollin from the same plant.
I now use one female off the main vine(if I can get one) when I pollinate to try to get a consistant type pumpkin when its grown. This is just a therory though, but how much of it do you guys think this holds true if any?

12/22/2007 3:18:15 PM

Dayton OH

Brooks -- I have been using 3 male flowers. But I understand that each seed gets pollinated individually, so I can see where this could introduce inconsistency in the offspring. Based on your theory, I am considering going to just one male (so we know who the father really is :) ) Paul

12/22/2007 3:37:10 PM

Nicholls Georgia

i use only one per female

12/22/2007 3:40:45 PM

New Brunswick

Brooks , you may have something here. I have generally used 2 flowers from the same plant on each female, but can see the merit of what you are saying. You have a lot of good ideas.

12/22/2007 4:31:35 PM

Middleton, WI

Hello Brooks, We have been using three males to pollinate the female. I will admit, I had not considered the pros and cons of using a single male or multiple males to pollinate the female. You bring up some interesting questions?

-How much pollen is enough?
-Are three stamens better than one to assure seed development?
-Will the use of a single male flower to pollinate assure a more consistant offspring than the use of multiple male flowers(same plant) as a pollinator? George

12/22/2007 4:35:00 PM

Pumpkintown, SC

I/we have talked about this in previous years, but since there isn't an active program in place to help prove this out, or a HH to lend the strength of his name to, it will probably just remain one of those interesting hunches. I for one have been exclusively using only 1 male for pollinations for years and will still continue until proven wrong, BF

12/22/2007 4:58:52 PM

Mt.Pleasant,Iowa

Heres on for you Brooks.....On the male flowers.....Some flowers have 3 ...4....5....and 6 peddles on them.My wife showed me on my plants when she was pollinating for me. She said she pollinated them with three ped. males and 1 five peddle male flowers. I looked and she was right. I showed Don young that when I went to his place and he never saw it either but they were there too.

12/22/2007 5:22:42 PM

Jericho Vermont

I try to get 3 males best case I feel, but many times I have used one because the timing is not always good. I have heard in the past folks have been using as many as possible and we used to think more males would mean better pollination which would lead to better seed count. Not so sure these principles still fit today.
John

12/22/2007 5:24:24 PM

Ohio

Marty, I have never noticed that before, but will look the next time I have a male flower to look at, thats interesting.

12/22/2007 5:36:37 PM

yep marty was right- i never gave it any thought before on males but like he says 3-4-5-6 petals on males-ill give it some thought next year wonder if it makes a difference

12/22/2007 6:10:02 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Marty, are you thinkin that the male blossoms with more petals are better to pollinate with? like more lobes in the female blossom are thought to be better? Interesting!!! Peace, Wayne

12/22/2007 6:17:07 PM

Utah

I would think that more flowers wouldn't add more variablity to the pollen in terms of the factors that we are concerned with.
There are hundres (maybe thousands) of pollen grains of pollen in one flower.
With that many grains you are going to get a good cross section of all the possible combination available. I don't think adding more pollen grains (more male flowers) is going to change that.
I'd also guess that the number of petals on a particular flower has no correlation to the gentics of the pollen in that flower.

12/22/2007 7:35:42 PM

Colorado

Ive had my best luck with three males.When I was desperate to get a set and used 5 or six males Ive had failures.

12/22/2007 8:03:43 PM

Danville, CA (petman2@yahoo.com)

I guess the answer would lie in testing the actual pollen from one male to determine if it indeed is identical. If not, as Gordon says, even the pollen from the same flower introduces variability so using a couple males to ensure you actually get pollinated may be the better way to go. If all the pollen was identical, then I think it would be better to use just the one male as Brooks suggests so that the offspring would at least have consistent male genetics. Anyone here work in a lab or at CSI (LOL) that can check?

12/22/2007 10:45:15 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

I believe that too many males might introduce genetic variables. Just look how different multiple fruit on the same plant can be. So for 2007 I resisted using multiple males & we still had good sets & seed counts. Go figure.

12/22/2007 11:10:43 PM

Kevinstinindians@yahoo.com

I use one and have good sets and seed counts almost everytime. I use the largest male flower I can find that will be opening the same morning as the female. I usually tie about 3 males shut just in case the one I want to use doesn't open or fails to produce pollen. If you think one male doesn't have enough pollen grains to do the job I believe you are mistaken. My single male pollenations have yielded some seed counts of near 1000 seeds.

Does the pollen differ geneticly from one male to the other on the same plant? Or even in the same flower? It would be interesting to know but the knowledge would be useless, to us anyway. So the point is moot. Using a single male is the best we can do to try to get the most consistant offspring.

12/23/2007 12:23:38 AM

South Bloomfield, Ohio

The only problem with that line of thought is which male to use? There's no way to know which pollen from which male is going to produce the characteristics you desire from one year to the next. You may grow the same seed from one year to the next, cross-pollinate it with the same seed from one year to the next, and wind up with a totally different progeny. Genetics is a crapshoot. You just HOPE you wind up with those desired traits.

To sum it all up, pollinate with as much pollen as you like. The more the better.......IMHO

12/23/2007 12:40:56 AM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

Giant pumpkindude makes a good point. If there is a diffence in genetics of the pollen, from different males on the same plant, then using more than one male will increase the chances of getting the desireable characteristics passed on to at least some of the seeds. I used two males per pollination this year.
I've heard of one grower that uses only one male, I think, and tries to use one from the mainvine....is there any advantage to this....I don't know? Good question Brooks!

12/23/2007 12:55:11 AM

Ohio

here is a good idea that Ron Rahe told me about.

Quote Ron
''I think it would be very interesting to pollinate 2 lobes of a 4 lobe female with squash pollen and 2 lobes with with a "orange" pollen.
Keep track of the lobes the seeds came from. The hard part would be getting anyone to grow them when they could be growing seed from such a wide selection of proven stock.''Unquote''

That would be neat to try,lol. But whats the chances the pollen from the squash plant carries the green genetics over when crossed with a plant that cross a consistent orange pumpkin ? It would be 50/50 probably but I bet you would be able to see at least a slight difference in color with the plant that was used crossing with the one crossed with the orange pollinator.
Another hard part on that is not getting any of the green pollinator pollen to fall into a lobe that you already pollinated with orange pollen, you would have to be extremely careful, but how would you keep this from happening? It would be tedeas(sp) to do but I think could be done,,, maybe,lol

12/23/2007 3:56:47 AM

Youngsville, LA

I think that diff lobe pollination idea is super. But instead of green squash to get more definitive results from the test, try poliniating half with a small type pumpkin and half with an AG. Or even half with a very diff type of squash that will have very distinct characteristics when grown. This way you will be able to tell for sure which ones were pollinated from which when grown. Also this way you could grow many of the seeds in small sq. ft area and discover the type the seed will produce without having to go full term. The possible uses could be accurately pollinating a pumpkin with 2 or 3 diff males and getting 2 or 3 batches of crosses from 1 pumpkin. If one could keep track of which lobe was where up untill seed harvest.

Maybe apply pollen with a tiny paint brush to each lobe.

12/23/2007 4:25:56 AM

Rhode Island

We should ask Joe Pukos how many males he used on the 998 pukos pumpkin or Ron how many he used pollinating the 1068 (id bet it was three or more )

We have used as little as one when that all we had for males and as many as five depending on how much male pollon was in each flower. If the flower was loaded then anywhere from 1 to a couple would do.

Personally i have no reference as to wheather each individual male on the same plant carries different genetics.

I would tend to think the genetics in the seed you used to GROW THE PLANT would carry over into ALL MALE FLOWERS ON THE HOST PLANT. no difference one male from another.

The amount of pollon to use would depend on the pollon count AVAILABLE in each male.

As mentioned above HIGH POLLON COUNTS in a male means the LESS MALES needed to get her pollinated.

PS--- if you ever want to get really freakish about this pollinating thing try pollinating a proven seed and pollinate using ONE MALE FLOWER FROM EACH OF THREE DIFFERENT PLANTS IN YOUR PATCH.
Example
xxxxx female crossed with one male from each three world record holders. TO ASSURE EQUAL DISTRIBUTION I WOULD SUGGEST MIXING THE POLLON TOGETHER IN A SMALL GLASS OR EMPTY PILL BOTTLE, SHAKE OR MIX WELL WITH AND APPLY THE POLLON MIXTURE EVENLY OVER THE FEMALE SEGMENTS.

A desirable result is possible by mixing together the likes of pollon fROM - an over the chart pumpkin, a beautiful large pumpkin and a low wide semi orange problem free pumpkin.

id bet back in the day this was done all the time but never mentioned. kinda like a CONTROLED SEMI OPEN POLLONATION WITH A TWIST.

pap

12/23/2007 7:17:12 AM

Leicester, NY

Pap,
I used 4 male flowers on the little 4 lobe female that became the 998.6. When I have enough males available, I’ve always tried to use the same number of males per flower as the number of lobes. On a 4 lobe female, I use 4 males and 5 lobe female, I use 5 males. I’ve had success setting fruit using just 1 male and 2 males, so perhaps using anything more than one is not accomplishing anything. Putting different pollen on different lobes sounds interesting, but would we be 100% sure of what we’ve done? Might need operating room conditions to control something like that. It would take some extra time and effort to accomplish that and I want the female to be open for the shortest amount of time possible. More than a couple times during pollination, I’ve reached for another male, just to have a bee dart into the female and mess up my cross. I love bees, but hate it when that happens.

12/23/2007 9:05:47 AM

South Bloomfield, Ohio

That WOULD be freakish pap. Only problem is that seed will never be certified with anyone and no one would know exactly what cross the product seed was.

However, if you DID manage a monster from the product seed and everyone else started growing it, you would be credited with starting a whole new genetic line. Howard Dill started somewhere, didn't he?

An even more jumbled mess would be to cross-pollinate this same way year after year. That would really throw Mike Nepereny and briansinsanity.com into a tailspin!

12/23/2007 9:07:20 AM

maine USA

I was under the impression that each individual pollen grain was a little diffent, not just each flower.

12/23/2007 9:51:19 AM

Pumpkintown, SC

If I'm not mistaken, individual lobe pollination and the charting of the seeds' actual placement within the fruit was researched for years, many years ago by Jim Kuhn. BF

12/23/2007 12:14:41 PM

Cincinnati,OH

Snake,do you know where to find any links to that info?

12/23/2007 1:26:49 PM

Western NY

i've separated the seeds out based on which lobe they were in, but never got enough plantings to see a difference.

12/23/2007 1:29:56 PM

Cincinnati,OH

Sorry Brooks for what I'm going to do to your seed.LOL
183 Bosworth x Triamble squash.But I will try to only do it to 2 lobes.Frankenpumpkin. HaHa!
http://rareseeds.com/search.php

12/23/2007 1:38:33 PM

Ohio

lolol Ron, that is going to be a intersting cross,lmao!! Im planning on crossing that 183 with ether the *1086 Carlson/Peter or the 748 Koch. Be interseting to see what these pumpkins will look like, Ha!

12/23/2007 2:32:04 PM

Ohio

The 914 Wentzell was pollinated with a couple diffrent males and look how it grew back in the day, some growers grew some nice big ones off that seed and others didnt, could that be because of the diffrent pollen coming from the two males? one male might have not had good genetics and the other one did? or could it be the diffrence in growers, its hard to say.

12/23/2007 2:41:21 PM

Napa Valley, CA

Brooks, same thing with the 658 Emmons. Another one with multiple pollinators from the same vintage as the 914.

12/23/2007 8:10:27 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

At the heart of this discussion is this point, is every pollen grain in a male flower different? Yes, every grain of pollen in a male flower is different. They may be similar, but each is different. If they were the same, then that would run counter to everything else in nature.

Are the grains in one flower significantly different, or more variable than the grains in another flower. I doubt it, but we don't know.

So this leads to a final point that I think we tend to forget... each seed in a fruit is different. The potential of every seed lies somewhere in a curve. I think that's why the BIG X BIG crosses we see recently (i.e. 1400 X 1400) are doing well. It's a selection of genetics that were some of the best of that particular seed stock.

12/23/2007 10:29:42 PM

Baltimore, MD

Wow this is an interesting thread, all of you guys really seem to know your stuff. I think I can help answer some of your questions to lead you to decide how many flowers to use. One pollen grain pollinates one seed. So if you have a pumpkin with 500 seeds only 500 pollen grains were used to form those seeds. However with that being said, you do need substantially more pollen grains than 500 for successful pollination. Each pollen grain forms a tubule that carries the genetic material to a seed. These tubules do not all grow at the same speed and a slow growing tubule will likely lead to a seed for an inferior plant and fast growing ones lead to a seed for a healthy plant. So during pollination if there is a lot of pollen the fast growing tubules will out compete the slow ones and the seeds that form will grow a healthier plant than a seed from a slow growing tubule would. The following is a link for an abstract on the effects of pollen competition in zucchini.

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0003-0147(199310)142%3A4%3C694%3AEOPCOP%3E2.0.CO%3B2-N

Each flower from a single vine contains the same genetic material but each pollen grain in a flower has a different arrangement of alleles of genes. I definitely agree with Gordon's statement about variability.

12/23/2007 11:00:12 PM

Baltimore, MD

Lastly, I would like to comment on separate pollination of the lobes on a female flower. This can be done and can be used to cross different males with one female. Each lobe of of the female flower corresponds to a separate compartment in the pumpkin. Now I personally come from a world where the pepo (or what you guys call a field pumpkin) is the standard pumpkin. In these small pumpkins it is by far easier to tell apart the separate sections of the pumpkin. The Atlantic giants tend to become disfigured and that makes it hard to keep track of the sections of the pumpkin that correspond to the lobes you pollinated. Is there a way to post a picture in the forum? If there is then I can post a picture that illustrates what I mean. Otherwise you can just look at the following two pictures and convince yourself of the separate sections.

This is a 6 lobed female flower: http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/imgoct06/Image48.jpg

This is a cross-section of a small pumpkin: http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/proceedings1993/figures/v2-069a.jpg

12/23/2007 11:00:22 PM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

I think you made some great points Cliff! I really like your thoughts on why the 1400 X 1400 crosses are doing real well.
Very interesting Trevor...thanks!

12/24/2007 1:36:53 AM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Thanks Doug, and thanks Trevor85. Keep posting here!

12/24/2007 12:19:10 PM

President - GPC

Trevor85 Nice Thread...keep it going....

12/24/2007 12:44:00 PM

Pumpkintown, SC

Sorry Ron, that was a while ago. It was very likely even told to me by Jim himself several years back. As much as I hate to sum up someone else's hard earned research, from my recollection, there was a very negligible difference in seed placement within the fruit as it relates to the improved performance of the seed. Sorry no link, BF

12/24/2007 8:54:26 PM

Pinedale, WY

Sorry, this is above me, but if I am understanding this right. Is this kind of like sperm, so just shoot a bunch in and the strongest one gets there? So therefore more pollen the better?

12/24/2007 10:57:13 PM

Baltimore, MD

Yes that is correct.

12/24/2007 11:57:45 PM

Cincinnati,OH

So Trevor
I assume section 1 is nearest the stem end and section 3 is nearest the blossom end?

12/25/2007 12:31:01 AM

Baltimore, MD

Actually it is the opposite of what you said. Region 1 is near the blossom end and region 3 is near the stem end. It is unfortunate that not everyone has access to these online articles without paying for them. This is the definition from within the article:

"region 1 = stylar end of the ovary containing
one-third of the total ovules; region 3 = peduncular end of the ovary"

Mauricio Quesada, James A. Winsor, and Andrew G. Stephenson "EFFECTS OF POLLEN COMPETITION ON PROGENY PERFORMANCE
IN A HETEROZYGOUS CUCURBIT"
The American Naturalist 142 (1993): 694-706

As I understand the terms of use I can share this article with anyone who wants to see it since I am not trying to make money from it and I am using it for the scholarly exchange of ideas. In any case let me know your email if you are interested in the article.

12/26/2007 1:40:59 AM

Long Island,New York

LIpumpkin@msn.com
I am interested in the article please.....Glenn

12/26/2007 8:49:02 AM

Cincinnati,OH

I would like to read the entire article.

12/26/2007 11:08:03 AM

I am interested,,,,not enough "real" science offered for me not to be,,,thanks for sharing Trevor.

I use as many males as possible for that days plans when pollinating, using main vine males first if at all possible.

Dan B

12/26/2007 11:56:19 AM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Trevor, I'd like to engage in the scholarly exchange as well. LOL

ctpumpkin@optonline.net

12/26/2007 11:37:06 PM

President - GPC

Please I would like a copy this is great stuff. And any other material related....Cool

TheWizard@ColoradoPumpkins.com

12/27/2007 8:47:20 AM

President - GPC

I like to use the biggest flowers as they seem to already have a trait over the smaller flowers. Any correlation? Big Flowers = BIGGER pumpkins?

12/27/2007 8:48:53 AM

Dummer Twp - Ontario

Trevor, would love to see the article also, kchenier@cogeco.ca

Thanks

12/27/2007 11:10:52 AM

Greensburg Pa

Trevor, please send me a copy. heart9162ts@comcast.net
Thanks Tim

12/27/2007 2:33:53 PM

Baltimore, MD

Gary (The WIZ),

I keep getting mail delivery failed errors when I try to email you. I have tried 3 times the and the most recent time I tried removing the attachment and just pasting the article in the body of the email but that didn't work either. If you have another email you don't mind sharing I will send it there. Otherwise I will just try again in a day or two and hopefully the problem will work itself out.

Trevor

12/27/2007 3:19:49 PM

i only use 1 male flower for a female flower

martin

12/27/2007 4:26:40 PM

Massillon, Ohio

I'm very interested in reading this article.
Thanks so much, Trevor, for making it available to us.

glennarea@sssnet.com

12/27/2007 4:45:18 PM

Trumbull, CT 06611, USA

Trevor...please send the article to me as well....rleonzi@sbcglobal.net

12/27/2007 5:51:40 PM

Coupeville WA

Trevor, if you wouldn't mind...pmrenn@comcast.net
Thank you very much.

12/27/2007 7:15:09 PM

Danville, CA (petman2@yahoo.com)

Me too. I tried to research it further on the web and got "more" of the article but not the full 14 pages or so.
petman2@yahoo.com

Thanks

12/27/2007 9:05:34 PM

Aloha, Oregon

ummm me to please joghorselover@comcast.net I will greatly appreciate it. THANKS

Jordan

12/28/2007 3:55:50 PM

Minnesota

Great topic guys. Heres a test that i did last year on a 712 kuhn. It was a 4 lobe female and i pollinated two lobes with the 1407hemhill and two lobes with the 931 miller and tied it off with a rubberband. The fruit grew uneven based on the lobes that i pollinated. Interesting!!

The 931 miller side of the fruit was smaller than the 1407 side of the fruit and i did get two different looking seed from the one pumpkin.

Both seed cavities from the 1407hemphill pollen had very large tan seeds and the two seed cavities from the 931miller pollen were small white seeds and a ton of them. Does pollen matter? I dont know!! I have seed from both and it will be interesting next summer to see the difference in the two that i plant. If anyone is interested in trying some of each send me a bubble. "WITH POSTAGE". This test was for myself since i couldnt get the true answer from any one person so i only kept a handful of seed from each so only request if you want to plant. Thanks!!

Happy New Years All.........please dont forget to say a word for Howard and his Family!!

Dean

12/29/2007 7:46:23 PM

Long Island,New York

really? wow. I find that hard to believe...having never seen a mix in an open pollinated fruit thats kinda wierd.

12/29/2007 10:29:38 PM