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Baltimore, MD

Hopefully the following is a new idea that will benefit you all, I apologize if it has already been stated. I know some of you out there are trying to cross the biggest with the biggest and I think that is a great idea, but I feel the way it is done can be improved. As I understand the crosses the size potential of the source of pollen is not factored in and I definitely feel it should be. To explain my point I will use some hypothetical pumpkins (because I don't know many of the real ones). In my example the 1000 Smith is the result of crossing the 900 Jones and the 1100 Miller. In addition I'll say that the 900 Jones is the source of pollen and the 1100 Miller is the vine that the 1000 Smith grew on. So the pollen from the seed of the 900 Jones was used to make the cross but no one seems to monitor the actual size of the pumpkin that was grown on the vine. In my opinion everyone should absolutely keep track of the size of the pumpkin they grow on the vine that they use to pollinate their pumpkins. As we all know the seeds don't all grow the same size pumpkins. Using the pumpkin from my example the seeds of the 900 Jones could have grown various size pumpkins like a 500 lb. pumpkin or maybe a 950 lb. pumpkin. And the particular seed of the 900 Jones used to make the cross that created the 1000 Smith could have only resulted in a 550 lb. pumpkin but that wouldn't normal be factored in and it should be. The current view of crosses would say that a 900 lb. pumpkin was crossed with an 1100 lb. pumpkin to make the 1000 Smith when in reality the seeds of the 1000 Smith have the genetics of an 1000 lb. pumpkin and a 550 lb. pumpkin.

12/27/2007 12:43:24 AM

Baltimore, MD

The potential of the particular 1100 Miller seed is known because it grew the 1000 Smith and most people would say that the 1000 Smith has the genes of the 900 Jones when it doesn't. Yes some of the genes are the same as the ones that grew the 900 Jones but they are shuffled around and half of them are different. In my example the potential of the particular 900 Jones seed was only 550 lb. and those genes are the ones that are in the 1000 Smith. I realize that there are tons of environmental factors that affect the size of the pumpkin but if you are trying to grow the biggest and you want to cross the biggest with the biggest you should always monitor the size of the pumpkin that grew on the source of the pollen.

I realize the downfall of this method is that you need to keep track of the source of pollen for your pumpkin and you won't know what is in the seeds until the end of the season. But I feel that by monitoring the size of the source of pollen you can better choose which seeds to plant. In my example you would currently think that a seed from a 1000 Smith has the genes of an 1100 lb. pumpkin and a 900 lb. pumpkin when it is more realistic to think of the seed as the result of the genes of an 1000 lb. pumpkin and a 550 lb. pumpkin and you might not want to grow that. For your purposes the size of the pumpkin grown on the vine is the only way to know the potential of that plant and if you want to have the genes of the biggest crossed with the biggest you need to know the size of the source of pollen. That way you don’t think you are getting the genes of a 900 lb. pumpkin when that particular seed only resulted in a 550 lb. pumpkin.

Hopefully this is a new idea and I explained myself clearly. I really feel that by using the current method you are taking two steps forward and one step back. Yes progress is being made but it is much slower than it could be.

12/27/2007 12:43:45 AM

Netherlands

Trevor, first of all, we talk about females and males, not about pollen and vines. Your hypothetical cross is:
1000 Smith (1100 Miller x 900 Jones)

Secondly, your idea is not new. Most (good) growers look at the progeny of both the 1100 and the 900. Not only at that particular 900, but at all of the 900s ever grown. Furthermore some of us look at the environmental factors in which that particular 1100 and 900 were grown and by whom.

Almost all of us keep track of the pumpkin that was grown on the plant that produced the pollen. Some males (pollinators) are only grown for genetics and the plants are pulled after they have produced the pollen needed.

Look at a site such as www.beachyseeds.com (premium seeds) where top seeds are sold. It will say for example:

1378.5 Pitura 07 (1039 Leonard x 1231 Pukos)
Pollinator (= father) grew the 1194 Pitura.

If you scroll down a bit, you will see the 1194:

1194 Pitura 07 (1231 Pukos x 1219 Colbert)

That means that the 1231 pollen used to pollinate the 1039 was from the same plant that grew the 1194 Pitura. This would be a great cross to grow, because both the mother and the father have great potential. If you scroll down even farther, you will see that last year another 1231 Pukos plant grew a 1346 pumpkin for Mr. Pitura. If you look up all of the other progeny from the 1231, you will see that it is ranked about number 4 in the world, making the 1378.5 Pitura potentially a top seed.

Hope this helps you out.

12/27/2007 4:47:41 AM

Ohio

Trevor, I just read the article that you was talking about on a different post (The American Naturalist) , that is a excellent article on pollination, its a excellent read that I learned a lot of things that I had no idea about.

Trevor about your post here, Brad is right, its not new, but its another excellent read for newer growers to understand how other growers plan there crosses.

12/27/2007 7:18:37 AM

Baltimore, MD

Oh well I was afraid it wouldn't be a new idea. At least I was able to come up with it on my own without knowing about it in advance. Well the next thing I was going to suggest is storing pollen. I did see there was one topic on that and a few people said it has been done but I didn't notice them mention specifically how it was done. I know that moisture during storage is the problem so maybe heating the pollen samples and then moving them to a home-made desiccator to cool before storing the samples at 0 F. If someone can figure out how to successfully store pollen for even just a year that would allow people to know the potential of that particular father from the previous season and use that potential towards making crosses the following season.

12/27/2007 9:40:49 AM

Colorado

lincoln mettler was storing pollen in liquid nitrogen back in the late 90's.He would be a good one to ask about whether he could save for the next season

12/27/2007 10:47:45 AM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Thanks Trevor. The concept is not exactly new for veterans of this, but it's not universally tracked either, (in the sense that we track the female and male). I think many of us tend to highlight what the pollinator plant did, IF that pollinator plant grew an exceptional fruit. We tend to ignore it if the pollinator did not do so well, and just emphasize that the pollinator was a well known seed. Good point.

12/27/2007 12:57:27 PM

Mn

good job trever.. i think this post will help out futer growers

12/27/2007 1:32:12 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

AGGC hierarchy trees include the weight of fruit grown on male pollinators. However I'll agree with Trevor that there is an element of disregard for this important detail by some growers. There are also some fine growers who intentionally pull some plants once they obtain male pollen. This is a risky proposition especially with certain "unpredictable" seeds.

12/27/2007 10:30:55 PM

southwest MO

The P of the P... Performance of the pollinator as Tremor called it. I think it is a key part in making decisions on witch seed stock to pick... I like to see what a pumpkin from the actual male plant looked like and see if I can visualize the 2 mated together.... The real problem is that was stated already- At pollenation time you still have the whole pumpkin growth stage ahead of you and lots of things can and do go wrong to that male plant (pumpkin). Other things to consider is the plant its self... Heat tolerance? Disease resistance? Agressive? Too agressive? Set fruit well? Are its reproductive parts normal? As these traits will hopefully, possibly be passed on. lol. The list goes on and on...
I enjoy and learn from reading your posts... please feel free to add to any discussion... I always do!!

12/27/2007 10:48:48 PM

Cincinnati,OH

Good point BG the grower doesn't know what will be his best plant at pollination time.

12/27/2007 11:06:26 PM

Leamington, Ont.

...And, there are some growers who have to pull the pollen donor plant/genetic plant, do to limited space! :(

12/27/2007 11:29:43 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

We are on the right track, by sharing all info with each other!!! Peace, Wayne

12/28/2007 12:05:03 AM

Southeast Texas

the pollinator plant of the 998.6pukos was the plant that grew the 1231.3 pukos.thats good joe did.nt pull that pollinator plant.

1/1/2008 9:33:07 PM