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Ohio

Say you want to remake a certain cross. But the problem is that you only have one actual parent seed, and you can't get the other one. Can you use a selfed seed for one of the parents? Or would that be a shot in the dark. this is a hypothetical question, i was just curious about the breeding.any input to help my wandering mind!!

3/27/2008 8:24:58 AM

Brooklyn Corner, Nova Scotia

I'm prepared to be corrected but the short answer to your question is no. Like you I am planning to remake a certain cross, in my case 664 Liggett ( 1005 Mombert x 1097 Beachy).
Instead of using selfed or sibbed seeds, I was planning on using seeds with identical parents 665 Bobier x 1047 Bobier. I have since obtained a 1005 Mombert- thanks Glenn Dixon- so I will cross that with the 1047 Bobier. The end result will be anybody's guess. Now who's to say that a 1402 Bosworth x 1297 Ghaye wouldn't perform as well as an original 1068 x 998 cross. The genes are there but IMHO the end result would be more of a reflection on the talent of the grower rather than the seed itself. I'm ready to be corrected now.


665 Bobier- (723 Bobier x 846 Calai) same cross as 1005 Mombert
1047 Bobier- ( 845 Bobier 00 x 723 Bobier ) same cross as 1097 Beachy

665 Bobier x 1047 Bobier is same cross as 664.5 Liggett.

3/27/2008 9:05:55 AM

Alex, IN

Andy, could you send me an e-mail please? I have a question for you.

pumpkinmike@gmail.com

Thanks,
Mikkal

3/27/2008 9:21:17 AM

Kevinstinindians@yahoo.com

I would say you're not remaking that cross since you are using different seeds. I believe selection plays a much bigger role as to why a seed is strong, and not that there are magical crosses. There are other 664 remakes out there. Andy Wolf has done two, I thing he could supply you with seeds if you wanted to give one a try.

I have made a similar cross to the 664 myself last season. I crossed the 1367 Rose (724x845) and the 125 Wolf (658(846xself)X723). The reasons behind this cross were rather simple. 3/4 crosses have proven to be strong over the years, whether there is something to this or simply coincidence I'm not sure. I don't really buy into the hybrid vigor theory. The 723 was the first seed to consistantly grow fruits over 1000 lbs. Thats why its one of the legends of pumpkin growing. As are the 845 and 846. So a seed that is three quarters 723/845 and one quarter 846 was what I decided to go with.

At the time it was grown the 1367 was the 5th largest pumpkin in the world. Only 17.5 lbs off the world record that year. The 125's pollinator was the plant that grew Andy's 1407 the third largest fruit in the world that season, and still the largest 723 progeny ever. Coming into last season the 1367 and the 1407 were the two largest 723 progeny. I believe these were the two strongest of all the 723's grown.

I had very little free time to put into the patch last season, I knew going in I most likely wasn't going to grow anything big. To make the long story short the 1367 grew my 629 and the 125 grew my 396. The 125 was started very late and recieved zero care. I was surprised that it got as big as it did. Both went over the charts. The 629 was +15.0 and the 396 was + 20-something. I didn't water either plant even once all season that I recall. I gave a bunch of each away this off-season. Do I believe they have the ability to do well, yes. Do I think anyone besides myself will plant them, no.

3/27/2008 11:46:47 AM

Brooklyn Corner, Nova Scotia

I can't disagree with your post Kevin, if I do make the 1005 x 1047 cross, it may turn out to be a complete dud or it may not. If you look at it like balancing chemical equations (remember highschool chemistry) the genes are there. Certainly the 1047 hasn't performed anywhere near the 1097, but I don't think it has been planted nearly as much either. For me, half the enjoyment comes from attempting a cross like the 664 Liggett and seeing how it turns out. No doubt I will be the only one who ever plants it.

Good post

3/27/2008 12:04:46 PM

Western NY

The question you have to ask yourself - do you believe in it enough to plant it yourself the next season? Not simply the cross on paper, but consider how your enthusiasm to that cross may drop if one of the plants becomes a dud. Lots of things to consider if you want to use a spot for a specific cross.

I did the 664 remake, twice on the same plant actually. I never specifically do remakes, but I had thought at the time that the 664 was scarce, and I wanted to plant both the 1005 and 1097 anyway. I had a 742 and 425 on the same plant. neither of those seeds have been planted.

As for your original question - I think a selfed version or similar cross would be interesting to use as one of the sides of the cross. I have done something similar many times. For example, a squash seed I will likely plant this year is my 291*. It is from a 703* Smith, which is a selfed 547, which is a selfed 935 Lloyd. The pollinating plant to the 291* was the 865 Mettler. It has a similar background to the 723 / 845, but has been repeatedly selfed on one side.

3/27/2008 2:03:02 PM

Ohio

Joe, from what I have been seeing over the years from growers trying to remake a cross of certain seed, I have never seen one that produces like the cross they are trying to copy. Is any of the remakes better then the original cross they tried coping? Not that I know of, you know any? Can anyone name one?
Im just not a big fan on remakes because they never seem to produce like the original(from what I have seen, but I could be wrong).

Brooks

3/27/2008 2:49:35 PM

Ohio

except if its the same cross as the 1068 Wallace, like the 1071 Houghton that has never been planted yet,lol!

3/27/2008 2:52:08 PM

Long Island,New York

Oh I don't know....the 845Bobier00 did pretty well.....

3/27/2008 4:10:10 PM

Pumpkintown, SC

If a remake isn't given the same dirt time by the same quality growers, has it been proven? BF

3/27/2008 5:20:29 PM

Ohio

Brooks, i'm new to growing. so i don't know to much about pumpkins, just what i read. i feel remakes have a great shot, as long as they get planted. 1074 calai was a remake of the 846 calai. the 846 is a great seed. the 1074 has produced some nice size pumpkins. i don't think the 1074 has been widely planted as the 846. i'm sure theres some other good remakes, but it comes down to alot of factors whether it does good or not ( grower, growing conditions and word of mouth). would a selfed seed have the same characteristics as the original seed or would it loose some of the qualities when you try to remake it?

3/27/2008 5:22:02 PM

Ohio

I agree, one of the reasons a remake doesn't do so much is because no one seems to plant it.
I think part of that problem into why remakes doesn't get planted is, if they have the original seed why plant a remake? And by the time the original proven seed is all used up, who wants to plant a old remake seed when a newer proven genetic seed has come along that's growing double what the older seed was growing plus growing world records?
I think another reason might be that growers don't like to chance precious patch space anymore maybe?.
I'm gonna chance my patch space on not a remake, but close to being one, it has the same cross as the 1068 Wallace '03 and that's a 1071 Houghton'03 seed, maybe I can get lucky with this seed.

3/27/2008 8:34:10 PM

South Bloomfield, Ohio

I'm with you Snake Oil. If a remake is never grown, it hasn't been proven either way. I'm also with you Andy. I'm doing a 664.5 remake with a 1005 and a 1097 and next year will be a 898 remake with both the Cox and Brown seeds(thank you Jeff, Craig, and Scott). It could prove out that my remakes will produce better than the originals. How will I know unless I try and grow them? I also like the idea of crossing the older pollinators with some of today's powerhouse genetics.

I see a LOT of growers make great crosses and never grow them. They expect someone else to prove them out. I make a practice of growing two of my own each year.

Providing these crosses are successful, anyone who wants seeds from them is welcome, but I'm not going to wait around and let someone else prove them out. I'm making these crosses for myself, not just to remake them.

3/27/2008 8:45:23 PM

Brooklyn Corner, Nova Scotia

Brooks I gotta say two things. If you're not planning to grow your own seeds, you should. Second, the 664 Liggett is the little seed that could. Look at what it has done in four years and as far as I know, only Andy Wolf has re-created it. That amazes me, Doc Liggett has consistently grown monsters from the 664 in patches 500 sq. feet or less. I was lucky enough to pick up a couple of Jake Van Kooten seeds that are close cousins to the 664 Liggett. You can see where I'm going. You can't argue with results.

3/27/2008 8:57:31 PM

Paradise Mountain, New York

Just about everyone has unproven seeds that are the same as some hot seeds. The 723 and 845 Bobier's are the same and because of them, we got great seeds today.But a lot of us never plant many unproven seeds. I'm growing the 1071.8 Houghton and hoping it will help prove it to be a great seed like the 1068 Wallace. Time will tell...

3/27/2008 11:43:00 PM

Rhode Island

i AM BY NO MEANS AN EXPERT ON PLANT AND FRUIT SCIENCES. MOST OF US ARE NOT AS WELL. (YOU MAY THINK YOU KNOW BUT YOU DONT)--- LOL HAD TO THROW THAT IN ITS A LINE FROM A HEAD NFL COACHES TV INTERVIEW. ALWAYS GETS A LAUGH

ANYWAYS HERE MY VIEW ON REMAKES.
ITS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO DUPLICATE THE SAME RESULTSAS THE ORIGINAL,TO MANY FACTORS INVOLVED.
YOU CAN USE THE SAME TWO SEEDS BUT WILL ALWAYS GET DIFFERENT RESULTS.

REASON BEING ? EACH SEED HAS A DIFFERENT (SOME SLIGHT SOME DRAMATIC )GENE PRODUCING ALL THOSE VARIOUS SHAPES AND COLORS WE CAN GET FROM THE SAME SEED STOCK.

ITS IS FOR THIS SAME REASON THAT ITS NOT ALWAYS A GUARENTEE THAT THE POLLINATOR OR HOST PLANT WILL GIVE US THE SAME RESULTS AS SOMEONE ELSE MAY HAVE ATTAINED.

GROWER SKILL NOT WITHSTANDING ? THERE ARE NO GUARENTEES JUST QUESTIONS. YOU WILL NOT KNOW UNLESS THEAT GROSS GETS PLANTED IN FUTURE YEARS

PAP

3/28/2008 8:18:50 AM

Ohio

Thanks for all the input!!

3/28/2008 8:29:22 AM

Ohio

Andy, now why would you think I wouldnt be planting my own seed?,lol Of course Im planting them! Ha!

3/28/2008 7:19:09 PM

Brooklyn Corner, Nova Scotia

Well I'm glad to hear that Brooks. I picked up just about every one of your seeds from seedoutlet and after you prove them I'll have the hot seeds.

3/28/2008 9:16:17 PM

Ohio

Andy, I have a better idea, how about you prove a couple instead this year, I really think you can do it!.

3/29/2008 4:23:12 AM

Brooklyn Corner, Nova Scotia

I'll be happy if I can grow one as big as my sister in law, which would take at least two strong men to move, but thanks.

3/29/2008 7:25:00 AM

Utah

LOL, Andy!

3/29/2008 2:03:00 PM

South Bloomfield, Ohio

Based on what pap said(and I think), one never achieves a true remake, just the same seed cross.

3/31/2008 8:09:30 PM