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Location

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North of FRANCE

Happy new year all !!!

So, this year i will try a good orange cross, but is it good to have a orange female or a orange male, or the two , to have a nice range color, thanks all.

Best, stéphane.

1/2/2009 3:43:24 PM

Wilmington.Ma.

Both

1/2/2009 4:56:09 PM

Cincinnati,OH

I like the 583 Young and 1054 Lawson available at seedoutlet.com

1/2/2009 5:42:18 PM

Cincinnati,OH

Also the 183 Bosworth

1/2/2009 5:48:45 PM

Midway, UT

I believe color is determined by mendelian genetics. It takes both male and female to determine color. Orange in dominant in pumpkins.

1/2/2009 6:45:40 PM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

Both. It increases your chances of getting nice orange offspring, IMO.

1/3/2009 2:07:45 AM

Columbus,ohio

I forget all how to ste these up but I will try. lets say each parent had one parest orange and one not. considering orange is dominate.
m a leXx
Xx
f XX XX
e -------- It is something lke that learned 2 years ago.
m Xx xx This would mean their would be a 75% chance
a of a orange pumpkin. I am not sure. I know
l someone that is studing genetics will
e chime in. i forget who but someone is.

1/3/2009 2:15:28 AM

North of FRANCE

I will choose a nice orange color and let it grow, maybe it can grow orange and heavy !!!

Think my female will be the:
953,2 Whittier (670 Daigle x 1180 Daletas)

Let see it in my futur diaries !!!! Best for all, Stéphane

1/3/2009 2:47:37 AM

North of FRANCE

Ron, 1054 Lawson is wonderful too !!!!

1/3/2009 2:48:28 AM

Alex, IN

How about the 993 Vincent/McGill, 772 Porier X 998 Pukos.

1/3/2009 9:46:23 AM

Clayton, Ohio, USA

Seedoutlet.com has a wonderful collection of orange and potential big n orange genetics. At $2.50/seed, it's a no brainer.

1/3/2009 10:20:47 AM

Springfield, Missouri

I have worked with genetics in other organisms and have studied it and do not think pumpkin color is simple mendelian genetics. Mendelian genetics is dominant recessive. THIS IS AN EXAMPLE "So lets say you cross a true green squash which would be recessive, with a very orange pumpkin like the 1016 daletas like the Wiz did this year. if you plant those seeds they should all be the same bright orange as the mother. If you self or sib those seeds you should come out with 25% homozygous orange, 50% heterozygous orange, and 25% green, So what that all means is 75% should have the same color as the original 1016 parent used and 25% should be green."

We have all done this before and know this is not the case you will end up getting a veriety of colors none as green as the original squash and none as orange as the pumpkin parent. Now if you cross these back there might be a 1to256 chance you get one as orange or as green as the original parents but this is not Mendilian genetics.

I tried to explain it a 17 posts down “If there is only one locus "loci" or places where certain alleles for a particular gene on a chromosome, then we most likely have co dominant genes or a multitude of different alleles that can be at that one particular loci. There is most likely a 2 or more different loci that determine just the color of the pumpkin which is why it is so hard to predict what color or shade of a color the fruit will turn out to be.”

I believe this gene is co dominant which means if there was a red flower and you crossed it with a white flower you would get pink. There are also a few different alleles which would be the genes to determine color, and possibly multiple loci or places for these alleles to be in the genotype.

As for a punent square the first one is mendelian and the second is co dominant X is red/ x is white
    X    X
x Xx    Xx
x    Xx    Xx
100% red
    X    X
x    Xx    Xx
x    Xx    Xx
100% pink

1/3/2009 11:59:13 AM

Coventry R.I.

Stephane,, go to giantpumpkinsonline.com my cross is there and its orange (1101 northrup x 275 vanhook)

1/3/2009 12:20:49 PM

I like the 1354 young 08 (1207 young x 998 pukos) it also went 1% over the charts. Someone should cross it with a 1161 rodonis ( 1231 pukos x 1450 wallace ) the 1161 had a nice red color to it and went 6% heavy. The fruit it grows should go at least 3% heavy and maybe have a nice red color were all looking for.

Martin

1/3/2009 12:57:28 PM

Cincinnati,OH

I agree with Logan. I found this obscure reference.
http://cuke.hort.ncsu.edu/cgc/cgc26/cgc26-15.pdf

1/3/2009 3:54:12 PM

Eastern Washington State

Frank, Ron,

It's readily apparent that what we are dealing with is in facts, a multi locus trait with multiple alleles with epistatic relationships.

However, we don't need throw up our hands in defeat. I'm absolutely sure that there are many potential crosses out there that will yield 100% nice orange in the progeny. The problem is that it seems that nobody has ever created the inbred lines required to then perform test crosses and progeny analyses really nail it down. I think (think) there is enough dominance present that a highly orange inbred line fixed for the dominant orange alleles at the releveant loci would produce 100% good-or-better orange progeny in the F1 (seeds from the cross).

brian

1/3/2009 6:52:41 PM

Eastern Washington State

giant pumpkin peep:

Short answer to your question is that the progeny of two plants that produced nice orange pumpkins would very likely be orange as well. But its only a good chance, not by any means a guarantee.

However, you will almost certainly not get nice orange pumpins that came from parents that were washed out pale crappy looking pumpkins (or nice green squash).

brian

1/3/2009 7:00:25 PM

Eastern Washington State

Sorry Logan, I mean't Logan and Ron on that next to last post.

brian

1/3/2009 7:02:06 PM

Ohio

Yea, what ever Brain said,,,lol

1/3/2009 7:41:11 PM

Eastern Washington State

Brooks and everyone else:

Aw hell just re-read that post and it was totally full of jargon. It was an interesting topic and I just threw some thoughts out there without editing while trying to play with the three year old. Anybody looking at my diary will quickly realize that

A: I'm a total newbie with AG growing and not yet serious enough about it, B: my soil isn't in good shape at all and it will be years if ever before I can say anything to anyone about growing for size, and C: I ended up with too much education and work experience for my own good sometimes. But I do grow AG's Brooks so am therefore a not a bad guy lol.

1/4/2009 11:35:23 AM

North of FRANCE

OK , i have enough to grow...... LOL

Thanks, stephane.

1/4/2009 2:54:18 PM

Columbus,ohio

Thank you logan ....I wasn't sure

1/4/2009 7:07:01 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Logan,

I agree that color is more than simple Mendelian. Or, consider that skin (and skin color) comes in layers. Some fruits have more layers than others.

1/4/2009 8:21:50 PM

Eastern Pennsylvania

If you look at enough crosses and their respective offspring I think you will see that it is the male pollinator that lends most of the color to the pumpkins a seed produces.

My observation is purely qualitative- I haven't compiled any real numbers and actually done the math. But then again, I have looked at the crosses of a great many orange pumpkins. I've never grown anything for weight only so I'm not easily distracted while surfing the AGGC. I agree that having both orange mother and father are your best chance. But this is something to consider if you were truely aspiring to create a "big and orange" cross for future planting. -Jim

1/7/2009 1:11:36 PM

North of FRANCE

Thank Jim, i will try this year.... Stéphane

Oh, I wish to all growers a great 2009 season !!!

1/7/2009 1:21:04 PM

Macomb County

Let me try to simplify it. You cross a true orange pumpkin with a ture yellow pumpkin. Meaning both genes in the first are orange and both genes in the second are yellow. Your results will be an orange pumpkin, because all it's genes are now OY (Orange/Yellow) and orange is the dominant and yellow the recessive gene.
    However, it's seeds, known as F1, are OO, OY, OY and YY. So, when you grow them and self them again, known as F2, 75% will be orange and 25% will be yellow. If you get a yellow, you know you have a prue bred yellow seed that will only grow yellow pumpkins, when selfed, from then on.
Whereas, you can see 75% of the seed will be orange, but only 25% will be prue bred orange, OO. The other 50% will still be mixed OY, but produce orange pumpkins because orange is the dominant gene. What they normally do is grow 3 plots of like 100 plants and look for the 2 that will pop-up with yellows in them and the 1 that will produce only orange to find the pure bred. Where most of us would be hard pressed to grow and self 5 again of each to try to do the same.You can't know until you self a self or the F2, when segergation occurs.
    You can see why it gets so mixed-up. When we cross, our pumpkin inherits one gene from each parent. And what if they're both the 25% recessive genes? Instead of a beautifully shaped orange, we end-up with a flat, green blob instead. When AGs are anything, but pure breeds, we have a 1 in 4 chance of that happening with any seed we plant.

3/16/2009 9:11:03 PM

Macomb County

I realize I need to correct a line of my reply. We cross a pure bred orange OO with a pure bred yellow YY and orange is the dominant gene and yellow is the recessive.
The seed from the pumpkin we get will be the F1 generation and all be orange. The seed will receive one gene from each parent and all be OY or YO, depending on which is the female and which is the female.
    Now if we self the F1, this self seed or F2 is where segregation occurs and the seed we get from our selfed pumpkin is when we would have OO OY YO YY genetics.
Now if we grow them and self them again, 25% would be pure bred orange OO, 50% would still be orange, but with a hidden yellow recessive gene and 25% pure bred yellow. The pure bred yellow is the obvious one, whereas, the pure bred orange is 1/3 now of the rest of the seeds you have left.
I think the important lesson it teaches us is, when AGs aren't pure breds, there's also the luck and the chance of a recessive gene popping-up. Right when and where you don't want it to.
    Perhaps it explains why the top growers are always into their last year's seed. Or at least, it seems rare one of them will dump them and go with all new seed. Might it help keep the 1 in 4 odds better on their side for some reason? I just think of the rest of us and how many of us will not like our seed at the end of the season and start all over with new seed the next season, only to do the same.

3/17/2009 6:02:31 AM

North of FRANCE

Nice work Jack, it seems to be an orange and yellow cross ok , it's clear now and this is why i'm trying to do the best now, will see this season Jack, good luck, Stéphane
(yes i know, i am not growing a 1290 Poirier or a one with heavy orange like 891 Northrup but there is orange genetic in my seeds, OK !!! :D )

3/17/2009 6:44:22 AM

Macomb County

Phanounours, I would say those are some heavy orange genetics. Good luck, I can't wait to see how they look!

3/17/2009 10:10:47 AM