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Midway, UT

I launched this weekend a pumpkin genetic search tool similar to the one on briansinsanity.com or a light version of the aggc.org. This search has a comprehensive list of 8,900+ pumpkins and their crosses from 2008 to the 1980s. The site is in beta right now and will be free to the public for the next week or two while data is cleaned up and minor bugs are worked out. Feel free to give it a try at www.pumpkinlink.com.

1/5/2009 1:21:10 PM

Long Island,New York

Where did you get the data from?

1/5/2009 2:59:31 PM

Ireland

Great site Jamie!

1/5/2009 3:25:48 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

It's a good start. I think you need to include the year grown along with the weight and grower.

And remember that pictures are worth a thousand words.

1/5/2009 5:31:21 PM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

Yep some copyright infringements might be an issue

1/5/2009 7:35:52 PM

Springfield, Missouri

i think its a good site not everyone can get on aggc its not up to that level i dont think anyone will say any thing unless they want to look like a jerk, as far as copyright goes, thanks jamie

1/5/2009 9:32:23 PM

Yuba City, Ca.

I think its great, the more people that keep track of the new AG weights and genetics, the better. After all, the weigh offs are done in Public and no one has a monopoly on that information. Nicely done ArvadaBoy! :)

1/5/2009 10:09:48 PM

Rhode Island

info wars?

1/6/2009 7:18:47 AM

Pinedale, WY

Nice Jamie, I couldn't believe it, the list even had my daughter's pumpkin from the JR Division, wow!

1/6/2009 9:51:13 AM

Minnesota

Looks like a great new site.

1/6/2009 12:34:34 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

I could say a million things here, but I'll limit myself to just one. If you want this site to succeed, you need to do it as an advertising funded site and not based on an annual fee. Why? Because a site of this nature depends on everyone having access in order to enter and check their own information. It might take me only 5 minutes a year to do that... but it needs to be done if it's going to fill the mission of being the one place for everyone.

1/6/2009 12:52:20 PM

Knopp, Germany

"The site is in beta right now and will be free to the public for the next week or two"

Very nice site, but i guess my question is what happens in the next week or two.

And I also want to ask the question that the green monster from LI asked, where did you get this data?

1/6/2009 1:10:01 PM

Bristol,RI,USA.

hey great site ! how can i add info on my pumpkins my 1317 had three prodigies a 849 that you have listed and two others how can i add info

1/6/2009 4:22:21 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

OK, here we go. It's a slow day here and I'll got some time to kill.

First off, let me say that I get involved in things like this to make friends, not enemies. So I apologize in advance if I skewer a few sacred cows. I just want to tell it like it is. I've seen a lot of these efforts come along, and fail, over the years. Including AGGC. Let me explain.

You can't copyright basic information like weights and growers. You can, however copyright the "presentation" of that information. As an example, consider a popular maker of road atlases. You have all seen these road atlases, they're commonly sold at Wal-Mart and other stores. Guess what? This maker of road atlases puts a false bit of information into every map that they make. That is, they may put a phony town out in the middle of nowhere, or maybe spell the name of a river incorrectly. Why? Because if anyone rips off that information and tries to call it their own, they're dead in court. But, there is absolutely no copyright on the information itself. You can make your own map, and sell it. Or give it away, all you want. Anyone heard of google? --- continued ---

1/6/2009 5:13:22 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Now, for AGGC... A few years ago a certain grower who likes to think put together a very detailed statistical analysis that attempted to predict the very best seed available, based on existing data in AGGC. It was great stuff. It was stuff that would do a statistician proud. And then, it was pointed out that, while the analysis was great, a lot of the fruits were missing......... a lot of history was missing! "But, but... I got this information from AGGC???"

If you limit access to such information, information that is somewhat tedious and requires lots of cooperation (hey, it's in the name!) to get it right... if you limit access, pretty soon that information just can't be complete. AGGC is the best effort we've seen so far, (I guess, I just don't know, after all) but it's less than it could be.

But, it's expensive and so much work to put this information together! Sure, but that argument is immaterial to whether or not it's filling it's mission. I don't care if you become a millionaire doing it, the point is, if you want it to be the best it can be, you have to open it up.

Wikipedia is in the top five of websites worldwide, and most of the work is done by average joes who enter the information on their own.

1/6/2009 5:20:48 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Finally, even on the internet, a person needs to constantly modernize. I don't use Internet Explorer. I use at least six computers on a regular basis. My favorites are Macs, and Linux. I only use my PC if I have a lot of time to kill, and even then I don't use IE.

Within two years, most people who own a mobile phone will own a portable device that can access the internet, whether it's an iPhone or iPod, or a Google Android phone, or whatever... it's going to access the internet, and only some of these devices will use the closed solution IE. Open it up and make it available, or stay closed. The choice is yours.

1/6/2009 5:25:57 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

I would LOVE to see someone succeed at this... believe me, I've seen a lot (at least 10) such efforts come and go. I'd like to see it work.

1/6/2009 5:33:05 PM

Eastern Washington State

ArvadaBoy many of us here appreciate your ambition and philosophy of making this kind of data available to people who are new to the hobby.

On a side note: Sites like yours, Briansinsanity, and AGGC can be more accurately referred to as 'genealogical' sites rather than 'genetics' sites. What we are looking at is family trees and phenotypic information, not something like 'the plants in this cross had the following alleles at the following loci...".

Anyway, best of luck to you!

1/6/2009 6:10:27 PM

Midway, UT

I appreciate the comments and your feedback. I see a place for both the AGGC and Pumpkin Link. From the limited knowledge I have of the AGGC it seems to be a fantastic site. Although I could, I don't intend to present the depth of data that the AGGC has to offer. The changes that you will see on Pumpkin Link over the next month will be safe guards and accountability built into the software to insure the data is up to par. This will be a self-policed site where users will have to reference their data sources and who made the changes will be presented for all to see. From what I have been told the AGGC has a lot of manual checking to insure data integrity and it has limited memberships for the same reason. It ensures a high level of data integrity which I think is very good. The problem is that not everyone can get access to it. For this reason Pumpkin Link is an alternative for those people who don't have many other options to get genealogical data (good point Brian that it really isn't a genetics search) until the rich data of the AGGC becomes open to them.

1/6/2009 6:56:31 PM

Eugene, OR

Way to go. That guy that runs briansinsanity is way behind on data entry. What a slacker! If it stays open to the public, free, and updated, I'm all for it.

Cliff, thank you for making that point on copyrights. Some people would like to think otherwise though...

Given the number of visitors at this fine website, I personally would love to see a complete genetics database here on BP.com. Imagine having a database tied into posts, weighoff results, diaries, etc. to display crosses, family trees, and other info right here on BP.com. Now that would be awesome. I would be willing to export all the data from my database to whatever format is necessary and provide it to Ken for that one.

1/6/2009 9:24:45 PM

Mill Bay, British Columbia

Jamie, as Owen and others have asked...but you have not commented...wondering where the info came from.

Is it from the briansinsanity site? Just wondering?

1/7/2009 12:28:20 AM

South East

does it matter where the info came from? shouldent any effort to something like this be applauded?

1/7/2009 6:26:32 AM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

I beleive it does matter..Even though that information was given to whom ever. It was taken most likely with out permission. The enteries into diary and photos belong to BigPumpkins. Pictures and data on my website belong to myself.

1/7/2009 7:50:50 AM

Rhode Island

you dont need permissin to copy writings that are made public information. yes as a courtesy permission should be sought.
copying and printing of others writings goes on each and every day.
if the person getting this site going is fair with everyone and does not exclude anyone? then i wish him or her luck.
pap

1/7/2009 8:28:51 AM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Let me attempt to clarify just a bit more on the copyright issue.

Back to the road atlases, if another company came along and wanted to produce a road atlas, but rather than do all the research, aerial photos, whatever, rather than do all of that, they just sat down at a computer and used an existing road atlas from another company to enter in the data using their own artwork, that would be a violation of copyright. That's why certain companies go to such lengths as to put a tiny bit of false information in their work... it's easily discovered.

But, if this new company does all the work on their own, or somehow licenses, or is given rights to the data, then they're in the clear. There is no copyright on the actual information! There is, however, a copyright on the presentation of that information, including the blatant copying of that information. You can't say, that company A is the only one who can make a map of Splitsville. Anyone can make a map of Splitsville. How you got the data is the key.

At any rate, there are a lot of lists out there that aren't sourced from the AGGC. For what it's worth, I don't think that this new database that Jamie has is from AGGC, based on what it has for my own pumpkins, and what AGGC has. They aren't the same.

1/7/2009 10:40:13 AM

Long Island,New York

For what its worth, it appears to me to be Brian's database with additional GPC and other info added since Brian started. And its common knowledge that Brian's database was "stolen/borrowed/copied/or otherwise aquired" from the AGGC without anyone's permission. That seems to me to fit CliffWarren's "blatant copying of that information" and if that fits then according to CliffWarren "that would be a violation of copyright."
At the risk of "looking like jerk" to all of Logan Duncan's friends --- a risk I'm willing to take--- it looks like a re-wrapped stolen database hyped to be free and easy access while charging money at a reduced rate....in effect a knock-off attained with a stolen database.
Just my 2 cents.

1/7/2009 11:04:43 AM

Knopp, Germany

On 5 January 2009 the following was posted:

"After reading the aggc thread I decided to launch this weekend a pumpkin genetic search tool similar to the one on briansinsanity.com or a light version of the aggc.org. This search has a comprehensive list of 8,900+ pumpkins and their crosses from 2008 to the 1980s"

I know the winter months make some of ue wishing for soil underneath the fingernails (me included), but how does one get data from the 1980's, and 8900+ pumpkins like that?

Jamie, if I am doing you wrong, I will admit it, I do not know you, or have anything against you, I just do not understand how like the Phoenix out of the ashes such a site can show up.

It is a good site for those hungry for data, I am not one of them anymore, I used to be, but now I cross seeds because my stomach says so...LOL..probably indigestion.

Best of luck in your endeavor, I think some opening of how you got the data is needed though.

BTW, I made it to your site also, not sure how...LOL



I guess the winter months are going to my head, but how do you get 8900

1/7/2009 1:05:56 PM

Columbus,ohio

I don't see what the issue is....Anyone can go to bp.com or brians site and get the the info.They are going to get the info one way or another. The person at aggc can be very stupid about things when it comes to accepting people.. I don't see anything wrong with jamie wanting to help growers who shamed upon by the owner of aggc.

1/7/2009 3:59:03 PM

Eugene, OR

Glenn, I would say it's a common belief as opposed to common knowledge. I certainly did not steal or borrow anything and anyone who knows me knows I would never do such a thing nor do I believe the data was stolen from any source before I took it over. There are a number of growers out there that maintain their own genetics list in the form of lists of seeds they currently possess as well as crosses. It wouldn't take very many lists to get a large database together.

I am not the original creator of the database on which my site was created. I have simply added to it by allowing growers to send in data. Granted, I have not had the time to transfer the data I've received into the online version of the database but the data keeps coming in regardless. I will gladly take my database down for good if that's what the growers want. I charge nothing, gain nothing, and pay for the hosting and bandwidth out of my own pocket to keep it up and running so I personally don't see the harm in keeping public information public.

1/7/2009 4:07:32 PM

Putnam Ct.

I agree ,I have been ignored @aggc,just wanted info ,now I have access, THANKS JAMIE!

1/7/2009 4:18:42 PM

Columbus,ohio

Brian don't take down your site it is a great site...Everyone is short on time....at one point or another

1/7/2009 6:28:42 PM

Minnesota

I think they are all great, they are all a little different. I really don't care where I get the info. I think it spreads the word about giant pumpkin growing. p.s. I have pattened this, you can read it once and thats it.

1/7/2009 8:04:44 PM

Denver, CO

I dont know if there is anything illegal about what was done to create Jamie's site. (a.k.a. Arvada Boy). There are a lot of software programs out there that can access a website and download all the data contained within that site at the push of a button. It's up to the web sites themseleves to use counter measures to prevent this from happening. Somthing I am sure was never thought to be needed.

That said, I am wondering how everyone would feel if they had spent all there time and effort growing a 1600 pound pumpkin only to have somebody come along a take it from there backyard? And then announce it as there own? Even if done legally, it would hurt.

Dose it matter if you like the person who grew it or not?? Does it matter that they would not let you inside the gates to see it?

In my perspective this is what has happened. No matter what your opinion is of the people who run AGGC or Brian's Insanity site, I think they alone should benfit from there work. I am old fashion that way. Gather the data independtly, on your own from 8900 oringainl entries over a decade or more. Then call it your OWN site. For now, call it information obtained (persumabley) without permisson from someone else's hard work.

Anyhow, I am just some idiot trying to grow a 1000 pound pumpkin in Colorado. I consider Jamie a friend via the RMGVG club and look forward to seeing him in the comming season.

And now for a beer. Better make it six pack tonight.

1/7/2009 10:32:15 PM

Denver, CO

Sorry for the crappy spelling above!

1/7/2009 10:33:45 PM

Vancouver Washington

Headline reads: Supreme court to settle giant pumpkin information theft case....

copyright infringement...mmmm that's rich....

The money that is being made off this vegetable information must be staggering....lol...

1/8/2009 1:14:15 AM

Williamsburg,KY

I would say that neither Jamei or Brian meant any harm to anyone, they just wanted to help growers. Isnt this suppose to be fun? You can find this information yourself, its not easy but it can be done. Just my opinion. Croley Bend

1/8/2009 8:50:01 AM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Thanks Brian. I certainly never thought that you had ripped off any information, and it was never "common belief" with me.

I think anyone who can get a "wiki" form of this information going, and get let everyone have access, is finally going to solve this!

1/8/2009 10:57:55 AM

Knopp, Germany

Sending in data to create a data base is something that I supported a few years ago. Some of us sent our Excel spreadsheets to someone to build a database, was to be free to the public.

Being given a taste of someones data base without knowing were the data came from, to be told it will be free (must mean eventually will not be) for the next few weeks is a different story.

I stand by me question, I stand by appluading Jamie for his effort, but I want to know where the data came from.

1/8/2009 1:13:04 PM

Mill Bay, British Columbia

ditto what Owen said...but the silence from Jamie is deafening....an answer about the source of the data is needed.

To glean information and data from another existing site, modify it and add some bells and whistles of your own, offer it for "free to the public for the next week or two" and then turn around and charge for it, is just not right. If you had Brian or the AGGC's permission to use the existing data...that would be a differant story.

1/8/2009 3:01:10 PM

Columbus,ohio

If you went to a lalwer and said"He took my giant pumpkin genetics info". They might laugh at you...

1/8/2009 4:30:11 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

I sent Brian the inventory of my own personal seed collection that I had tabulated in excel. A lot of growers did. You can tell because a lot of our pathetic virus era seed crosses were on Brian's insanitythat were too small for AGGC. The genetic data I have on my spreadsheet could have been *confirmed* at AGGC but there was never a need to do so. Quite frankly, I wouldn't have any idea how to export the data at AGGC & would never try. To me that site is too valuable to risk losing membership. LOL

1/8/2009 4:36:01 PM

Denver, CO

giant pumpkin peep . . . If you went to same lawyer and tried to take thier lawbooks, and then claim them as your own because its all public information anyway, they might do more then just laugh at you.

1/8/2009 4:45:03 PM

Annapolis Valley Nova Scotia

I may be way off here, but I kind of look at this like horse racing, you can find the results of that anywhere in newspapers, on the TV and on the internet, equally the record and the breeding of the horses is never kept secret, nor is copyright claimed on that information, it is considered Public Domain and there is one hell of alot more money resting on horse racing than there ever will be in Pumpkins. Time for all to have a reality check I feel.

1/8/2009 5:40:42 PM

Dresden, Ohio

Here is an idea......Why don't we all stop wasting time on this subject. If the owner of the AGGC wants to take this to a lawyer, then let him do so. Otherwise, just use whichever of the sites that you would like to. Too much time having a peeing contst as to which poster is right about copyright. Spend more time on growing giant pumpkins.
-Jeremy

1/8/2009 5:54:23 PM

Very weak analogy Phil,,my guess is the breeders don't get genetic data from the newspapers. That fodder is there for trackside wagers.
The point is being missed by some here that if the data was from an existing base it was stolen, there appear to be entries that came from the GPC page, that page most of us realize contains errors, the quality of the data is the key for the future integrity of the genetics in this hobby.
I do realize that some growers thirst for information and that is commendable, but I also feel that this approach to creating a new site that will soon charge for use is off base.
I assume that jamie might have approached brian with the idea and brian stuck with his original concept that this data should be free, but since they aren't offering input we are all in the dark on this.

1/8/2009 5:56:26 PM

Paradise Mountain, New York

A copyright is the set of exclusive legal rights authors have over their works for a limited period of time. In the United States, these rights are primarily defined by federal copyright acts under the authority of the U.S.Constitution. The current 1976 Copyright Act, amended many times since its enactment, gives authors exclusive rights to copy the works, distribute and sell copies, modify and adapt the works, convert the words into other formats, and publicly perform or display the works. Currently, the author's rights begin automatically when a work is created. Copyrighted works are not limited to those that bear a copyright notice or are registered. These rights prohibit others from using the works without permission or profiting from the sale or performance of these works for a fixed period of time. For more information, see What is Copyright?

What works are protected by copyright?

Copyright protects "original works of authorship" that are "fixed in any tangible medium of expression." Expression refers to the way in which an author describes, expresses, or illustrates something. Copyrightable works now include a vast array of creative expressions, including: writings, musical works, plays, pantomimes, choreography, artwork, photography, sculptures, architecture, motion pictures, audiovisual works, sound recordings, web pages, and computer programs. Almost all works created after 1978, even those with no mention of copyright, have copyright protection.

1/8/2009 6:14:45 PM

Annapolis Valley Nova Scotia

Dan I understand your concerns now.

1/8/2009 6:17:18 PM

Eugene, OR

Dan, please see my post above. To quote, "I am not the original creator of the database on which my site was created. I have simply added to it by allowing growers to send in data. Granted, I have not had the time to transfer the data I've received [of late] into the online version of the database but the data keeps coming in regardless. I will gladly take my database down for good if that's what the growers want. I charge nothing, gain nothing, and pay for the hosting and bandwidth out of my own pocket to keep it up and running so I personally don't see the harm in keeping public information public."

I am the owner and creator of briansinsanity.com and I was never approached by anyone. It's probably no surprise that I don't agree with restricting access to cross information or charging for it.

The html, php, MySQL, and Javascript I've written to search the database, display family trees, etc. is something I would consider "copyrighted" but the data itself belongs to each and every one of you. To say I, as the database creator, own the data submitted to the database by the grower is laughable. I own the code used to display it in an organized fashion but I would never claim ownership of data that was given to me by the growers themselves.

Best wishes to you all in 2009,
Brian

1/8/2009 9:14:37 PM

Mill Bay, British Columbia

Thanks Brian....now.....Jamie?

1/8/2009 9:26:41 PM

yes Brain,,,as you know I support your site,,a great tool that I have sent my data to.

I fully understand your real life taking away the time you once had to dedicate, I now wait with glen for jamie's response

1/8/2009 9:44:10 PM

norway , maine

sharing information is not a copyrite infringement.its free just like lime wire,caza,bearshare. brian your site is great.let the information hoarders bark all they want. thankyou big pumpkins and thankyou briansinsanity for being the best of all things... FREE

1/8/2009 10:54:16 PM

Colorado Springs.Co

I'm a fan of your site as well Brian. Thank you.

1/8/2009 11:08:35 PM