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President - GPC

WHy would we want to use pollen from a plant that was throwing a double vine. Would it be proper to NOT use pollen so we do not pass down flawed genetics?

5/6/2009 1:09:56 PM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

Good question Gary.
I'd like to hear opinions, so I know how to deal with double- vined plants in the future. Should they be avoided as pollinators? I have a back-up plant that seemed have doubled right out of the gate.

5/6/2009 1:52:13 PM

President - GPC

Well you know maybe I plant it and I straighten it out. It grows fine and I use it as a pollinator....later on down the genetic line it pollinates with another....Heck I dont even know if double vining is a genetic thing. Ill research it but I kind of think it is an unbalance nutrient or temp deficiency .....dunno.. ,,, Please chime in and let us know your experiences here......

5/6/2009 2:15:20 PM

Pembroke, New Hampshire

Some people feel that double vining or ribbon vining is an aggressive trait in a plant that COULD be desireable. The Eaton 842 is a good example of a plant that tended to double or ribbon for a lot of growers, but everyone still wanted to grow it for it's world record potential. I can't say that as a pollinator it's progeny are living up to that potential, or known for their ribboning growth. Could it be that these properties are somehow genetically linked?

5/6/2009 4:47:28 PM

Pembroke, New Hampshire

I don't know anything about the 842 as a male pollinator, but if you look at it's progeny, it's a definite winner. They include the 1376Bobier, 1459Sundstrom, 1346Pitura, 1342King (amongst others), as well as the 1161 Rodonis which grew the 1521.5Werner and 1208Thistle.
Anyone with male pollinator info?

5/6/2009 5:09:49 PM

President - GPC

Ah...interesting.....846 Calai was the female on the 842 cross.....Hmmmmmm

5/6/2009 5:14:20 PM

Eastern Washington State

I second Doug's opinion, there is a lot to that question. This could also be applied to the question of 'club roots' in a few other recent threads. My feeling is that we simply don't have enough information to make the correct decision. Four possible senarios come to mind:

1. The trait is totally environmental (no genetic component), and not using it as a pollinator limits your crossing options unnecessarily.

2. The trait is completely unrelated to any other traits you are interested in (ie size genes), so it would be best to 'toss it out of the gene pool' as you suggested.

3. The trait is genetically linked to other traits you want. this is kind of like an intermediate case between #s 1&2 you are limiting your pollinating options but are getting something for it (ie getting rid of the double vine trait).

4. My pet idea. The double vine/club root trait is pleiotropic to a desired trait. What this means is that the same gene can control two seemingly unrelated traits. For instance, say you have a 'vigor gene' that in combination with another 'vigor gene' causes double vine. Or you have a hormone response mutant gene allele that messes up early seedling growth (like the club root thread), but later, when the plant is up and going good that same gene allows for more fruit expansion.

My $0.02 is that if the double vine trait is a real headache then don't cross with it. Better rid of a clear and present danger.

5/6/2009 7:36:18 PM

Eastern Washington State

It would be nice if we had a site at which growers could put in information on traits such as these. Over time we could see associations that could answer questions like yours. In my opinon, things like 'fat root' and maybe even double vine could be associated with fruit size. We already know this that # carpels/flower are associated with size, why not other things?

5/6/2009 7:42:14 PM

Brooklyn Corner, Nova Scotia

Whiz, approach your question from another angle. Historically, how did the pollinator do? Grains of pollen like individual pumpkin seeds, no two are alike but many may possess similar traits, good or bad. For example, if I had a 1068 that double vined on me, I wouldn't hesitate to use the pollen from that plant. Odds are very much in my favor that the end result would be positive. Your question implies that the pollen from a double vined plant would produce like results. It's a crap shoot. If your talking pollen, then look at what the father has produced historically. Did every 898 Knauss live up to it's reputation, well no, but many did so go with the odds.

5/6/2009 9:33:22 PM

Billerica,Massachusetts

double vining and flat vining aka ribbon vining are two different issues doubles are usually easy to correct by pinching off on side but flat vines are not as easy to correct from a surgical standpoint.
Glenn

5/6/2009 10:22:18 PM

President - GPC

All good info here.....I will keep this one going it will be shown in the diary...We will see how it does and make effortZ to correct and grow it BIG. Thanks for your help.

5/7/2009 11:00:30 AM

Simi valley, ca

Strange that i have seen double vines from time to time, But on a back up plant iv used many many times ( and many yrs ) & grown it to 10 ft several times - before pulling it to the one i planed to grow! i have never had a double , or any other problems that i can remember , its off my wifes 672 that was 1088 W K x 856 Dill , grand parents are 723 x 712,, & 846 x 810 ,, It also gave me my PB last yr in corner of patch in 200 sq ft & with soil disease getting it in middle of yr it got to 892 lbs

5/7/2009 2:50:45 PM

Tinykinville

wiz always cross best with best if problem arrives then cross it with another monster without that problem. people will grow it and figure out the best way to handle it.

7/30/2009 5:06:28 AM