From

Location

Message

Date Posted

Dorval,Quebec

A few years ago I could not set a pumpkin on a seed that had been the end result of selfing a fruit from an 801 Stelts seed then selfing the fruit from a seed from the first result.I always wondered if part of the problem was too much selfing.This year out of necessity(no other males available)I had to self a fruit from a seed that had come from a fruit that was selfed. As I like to grow my own seed,I'd like some opinions on the setting question related to selfing 2x.

9/8/2009 7:33:44 PM

Brooklyn Corner, Nova Scotia

Well I'm no expert on selfing, not sure if there is such a thing, here is my 2 cents. In 1995 George Lloyd selfed his 687 Lloyd not once but twice creating the 875 Lloyd and 909 Lloyd respectively. In 1996 the 875 and 909 were crossed to create the 935 Lloyd 97, which IMO gave birth to the great seeds of today ie) 723 Bobier and 845 bobier- both 935 Lloyd x 865 Mettler. No other grower that I know of had the vision to do such a thing, especially when at that time selfing was not trendy. The 687 Lloyd turned out to be a a winner, will yours? Who knows, but don't be afraid of to grow your own and see what happens.

9/8/2009 9:57:48 PM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

Interesting question Mike.
Great reply Andy. I didn't know that breeding history.

9/8/2009 10:14:16 PM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

I can't say for sure, but I think the problem you had was in reality some other circumstance. Selfing should not and would not cause the problem you saw. I think we should do more selfing.

In nature, I would bet that 75% of the time if you "let the bees do it", they are inadvertently selfing the fruit. That is, if they go from one flower to another and not fly all across the patch, then most of what they do is selfing.

On the downside, I once grew a seed that was the 846 Calai, selfed twice. But it turned out white, something that I certainly did not expect.

9/9/2009 11:47:41 AM

Groton, NY

self pollinating is not bad unless you have some less than favorable genes. It increases the chance of having 2 recessive genes in the offspring. If these recessive genes are bad, for example disease susceptibility, bad roots, small leaves, etc, then you will get a problem. If the genes are good, for example bigger leaves, larger roots, then you are all set. It all depends on the genetics of the parent plant. Actually most of the plant geneticists I work with try to inbreed to get pure lines to find out the the which gene version is best.

9/9/2009 12:08:16 PM

Dorval,Quebec

THANKS for the replies.....Maybe I shouldn't be concerned and go with the "emphasizes the good or bad characteristics of a seed" idea.Both times I was able to set the first fruit on the vine to the point where that fruit dominated and others aborted.

9/9/2009 5:11:25 PM

Eddyz@efirehose.net

I'm with Cliff on this one, Selfing isn't a problem.
Now for the flip side, look at the 848* Mckenzie, The chances of setting a fruit on one is better if selfed, lots of crosses that aren't abort.

9/9/2009 7:40:33 PM

Long Island,New York

Thats an interesting deduction Iceman...love to see the statistics you used....

9/9/2009 7:50:01 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Eddy's theory is very intriguing. Data?

9/9/2009 9:54:42 PM

Eddyz@efirehose.net

G Ask many a grower of the 848 Mc and they will tell you the selfed is the easiest to grow, Many can't set an 848 on the mains if crossed with another seed, but if selfed they hang on. Really same with the 895 Hester, and that's why I like your seeds because they set better

9/10/2009 12:58:22 PM

Winston Salem NC

I tried to cross my 848* with the 1055 Pitura* tried 8 none lasted more than a week. Selfed it and it took first time. Weather conditions were about the same for all of the pollations. It split early so I dont know if it would have made the long haul. I think Eddy may have something.

9/10/2009 3:29:29 PM

Kevinstinindians@yahoo.com

I agree that selfing isn't necessarily a good or a bad thing. And when you do self you don't know what traits you're going to get for sure in regards to size potential or appearance.

The 962 Willimese in 2000 was in the top 20 in the world for that season and was selfed for 4 generations. The seed that grew the 962 was the 706.5 Willemese. Two 706.5s were grown by Mr. Willimese that season, the 962 lber that was quite orange and one to 885 lbs that was cream/white in color.

Last season I grew a field pumpkin that had what I thought was great shape and color, I selfed it. The only thing I didn't like about that pumpkin was that it had the shortest stem I'd ever seen on a field pumpkin, maybe 2 inches long. I was a bit worried that its offspring would all have super short stems. As it turned out all the ones I grew this year have very similiar shape and color to last seasons pumpkin but they all have regular length or longer stems. I grew several plants with several pumpkins on each plant and not one has a short stem.

9/10/2009 6:58:47 PM

Eddyz@efirehose.net

G I just went through the AGGC and every prodegy of the 848 is a selfed or crossed with another 848 selfed fruit. The exception to this is the 4 that were crossed with Non squash plants, 898, 723, 1370 and 14??(memory)

9/10/2009 7:51:10 PM

Dorval,Quebec

Maybe my first set keeps taking because I am selfing.Thanks for all the interesting replies.

9/11/2009 8:13:12 PM

Sacramento, Ca

Here is a pretty good article regarding AG genetics and selfing. it is written by Harold Eddleman, Ph. D., President, Indiana Biolab, 14045 Huff St., Palmyra IN 47164

http://www.disknet.com/indiana_biolab/pk010.htm

9/14/2009 10:23:23 AM

Picton,ON (j.vincent@xplornet.ca)

Eddy

My 995* was 848 x our 898* from the previous year..(842* x 552*).I pollinated several on that plant with bo issues. I don't think the theroy of the self pollen holds much water. The abort issue in squash has more to do with Nitrogen than anything else.

9/14/2009 8:34:10 PM

Picton,ON (j.vincent@xplornet.ca)

Sorry...898* was 824* x 552*

9/14/2009 8:35:47 PM

Eddyz@efirehose.net

Your actually proving my point for me
What is the 848*** 895 Hester X 756 Kennedy (exception to the rule)
824 Brunst is all 895 Hester except a bit of the 990 hebb
The 552 Sherwood is a 895 Sibbed

Nitogen for pollination is not as important as Potasium
But nice try

9/18/2009 8:06:12 PM

Ohio

This is just my personal opinion on this and I could be 100% wrong, and I dont know about anyone else but I have never had any luck with selfed seeds, and I have done some selfing the last few years and grown them, they just never did seem to grow right for me for some odd reason, coincidence? maybe,, but enough for me to not throw a selfed seed in my patch any more unless one really proves it self out.
there Isnt very many selfed seeds out there that has been grown real heavy if you think about it.
I haven't looked into it real deep but whats the biggest pumpkin a selfed seed has ever grown anyway?,, Anyone know?

I have seen some sibbs that grows some biggies though, seems to me they grow better in my personal opinion, why?,, maybe because its more noticeable that more people grow sibbed seeds then they do selfed, I dunno?

I did do a sibb cross this year with the 985 Werner, never did a sibb cross before and wanted to see what the results would be for next year.

9/18/2009 10:01:28 PM

Dorval,Quebec

I'm thinking John and Eddy are both right on the ferts.Potassium is important for fruit growth but too much nitrogen emphasizes plant growth,takes away from fruit growth.

9/19/2009 1:08:55 AM

Long Island,New York

well, I disagree eddy but don't have time to prove it statistically now.....due to the almost singular usage of 895hester genetics, 900lyons genetics etc over the last 10 years statistics may not be able to prove this but maybe this winter I'll review it.....my experience with largely non-lyons stuff refutes your theory. But I still love you like a brother..........lol

9/19/2009 8:13:59 AM

Picton,ON (j.vincent@xplornet.ca)

I have thought about this quite a bit and I understand Eddy what you are getting at. Is the pollen and or are the females becoming sterile, because of all the inbreeding and I perhaps this is correct.

My feeling on squash aborts is that the genetics that we have selected for are very efficient at taking in Nitrogen. the Squash plants are always greener and more aggressive than the pumpkins with big vines and leaves. I usually starve my squash's for Nitrogen early on because of this and it has helped me improve my pollination success. Most highly successful pumpkin growers will tell you that they just can't grow squash...they abort, blow up, go down and in my opinion, the soils they are growing in are so cranked, they genetics just don't support them in their patches.

I also feel that the narrow gene pool on squash is really holding back the squash from reaching the high weights of the pumpkins. we need some good outcross genetics to bring in to the squash to get some hybrid vigour.

Dick Wallace made a comment on another board that squash will never rival pumpkins because of there genetics (or something like that, sorry Dick if I misquoted). Some of the real old growers tell me that they used to cross squash into pumpkins to make them heavier, because the squash used to be the "heavy" genetics.

The simple problem is that most growers grow a few pumpkins and if they grow sqauash at all, they end up selfing because they only have the one. The odd grower will cross a pumpkin in, to get an outcross, but the resulting seed almost always results in pumpkin because the green gene is recessive.

I have toyed with the idea of resurrecting an old squash line to try to create some hybrid vigour. I have the seeds, now I just need space and time

9/22/2009 8:00:16 AM

Picton,ON (j.vincent@xplornet.ca)

I should apologize to Mike if the thread too a right turn. I think that there is some evidence to suggest that too much selfing could reduce fertility in the resulting offspring. It only makes sense. If you do this in animal species, it does reduce fertility...no question

9/22/2009 8:02:58 AM

Eddyz@efirehose.net

John, your right on with my line of thinking, The Squash mix, really isn't a mix at all. it's a very narrow line of genetics, This is with the Hester, Mckenzie lines.
The Squash growers need to grow some of the Andrews, Wolf, Beachy, Welty etc lines so we get new blood into the squash.
I've always liked G's lines because they are old school lines with no ties to the popular lines. But these seeds need to be grown,

Now, further to this, I think we are headed in the same direction with pumpkins, We are narrowing our gene pools by only growing the elite. There are more and more pumpkins out there that will only self at pollination, Almost every pumpkin grown today has the same great grand parents.

9/22/2009 9:48:17 AM

Long Island,New York

The problems with pollination go back to the 900lyons and the 895hester. Without the hester we'd be complaining about the lyons line's poor pollination. The 900lyons as far as we know is a pretty good mix of "lines" as we knew them back then...waterman, Dill, Holland etc.....please explain to me how, since the pollinaton problems go back to the 900 mixed rather well)and the 895 was sibbed....explain how you can blame it on selfing and inbreeding?

9/22/2009 3:14:25 PM

Dorval,Quebec

Right turns not a problem for me John,on a post or in my patch after a planting before a true leaf,lol...

9/22/2009 5:54:08 PM