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Las Cruces NM

I am currious about something. There are a ton of good genetics out there. People get these and plant them, cross them, but then what? It seems the next year the get some new genetics and do the same. So why not, through selective berading grow yer own? Or should I say breed your own. Is it a case of the leaves are greener in someone elses patch -- or should I say pumpkin oranger ... heavier? I understand the concept of "proven seed" but they are limited, once grown they are gone ... and if crosses are never planted, they can never be proven! I'm thinking of the 998 -- it was a failure in the sence it did not get to 1000+ but the genetics were there and still is one of the most desireable seeds. I'm not saying we shouldn't grow the best, rather we may simple be over looking the best.

11/22/2009 12:47:56 PM

Midway, UT

The Biz and I have been talking about this for months. As everyone knows not every seed in a pumpkin has the genetics to produce the same results. It makes more sense to me to start 5 seeds from your own pumpkin and then select the most vigourous seedling to put in your patch then to take one seed from another grower and hope it is a good one. That being said I also thing it makes sense to introduce new genetics into your patch from other growers to do specific crosses to produce certain traits. In the Pumpkin Growers Survey that I did last year (planning on doing another survey in January) that was one common trait among the heavy hitter growers. They grew their own seeds as well as seeds from other growers. Heavy hitters are the highest percentage of all grower groups to do this and they do this because it works.

11/22/2009 1:12:11 PM

Colorado

Jamie,be cautious when talking about biz,wiz and now quiz genetics.That seed line might end up a "fiz". yo---you know like when you get a fizzle in your shizzle bro!!

11/22/2009 1:49:20 PM

milford, CT,

The last 2 years I have grown at least one of my own seeds...next year I am growing 2 of my own seeds. I agree..if you put all that effort and research into making a cross...you should grow one. How can you expect others to have faith in your seed if you don't?..Mark

11/22/2009 4:17:04 PM

Johnston, R.I.

Mark I couldnt have said it better, if you dont have faith in what you do how can anyone else !!!!!!!!!

11/22/2009 7:16:19 PM

Picton,ON (j.vincent@xplornet.ca)

I think this all depends on your situation. If you are a newer grower, only have two or three spaces and are still honing your skills, you should try to focus on proven seeds only. This will greatly improve your chances of growing a big pumpkin. Once you can grow a thousand+ pounder, its a really good idea to grow one or two of your own along with some proven seeds. This helps evaluate your seed against proven genetics. Even HH's rarely plant all their own unproven seeds.

Once you start to grow our own stuff side by side proven ones, and yours does well in the patch beside a great seed, you know your seed is worth trying again or moving forward with the line.

I am a big believer in standard deviation. That is, if your patch best is 900 lbs, grown on your own seed and it was grown beside a 998 Pukos that only kicked out 800, your seed should be just as good as a 1400 pounder grown in a patch with a patch best of 1500. Planting proven seeds with your own is the yard stick to measure your own seeds performance.

11/22/2009 7:40:04 PM

Las Cruces NM

Seems everyong agrees? The question is why it doesn't seem to work that way in ghe AG community? If I take a 1689X1566 and cross it with a 1502X1689 I'm doing so with a Seems everyone agrees??? But I don’t see that happening. Yes, new genetics are needed to get desired traits, that is why to cross, but the plan must then be carried forward. The question is why it doesn't seem to be the way of the AG community? If I take a 1689X1566 and cross it with a 1502X1689, I'm doing so with a purposeful intent and thus I need to plant one or more (many more as I see it). But what I see over and over is they do great crosses, but the pumpkin turns out to be a 998 so they cull that line and seek all new seed and I’m sure we all understand the genetics are in the seed not the pumpkin! In the general plant world, when developing a hybrid (read that cross), many offspring are planted and then the best selected for the next generation etc. Why don't most AG growers (heavy hitters aside) follow these protocols? Shouldn’t the AG community be promoting this? Don't know maybe they are and I don't see it! Comments?

And Wiz, Biz, and Quiz (who is that?) are buZy with cloneZ but sure to have something their sleeveZ and I don’t think it’Z fiZ! Only wish they would expant scope and include others like me me me :P

11/22/2009 8:26:44 PM

Las Cruces NM

echo lol

11/22/2009 8:28:47 PM

Ctpumpkin@optonline.net

Our best results were on our own seeds this year. 598 lbs of blaze orange on our 853. We did a great job killing high dollar seeds. <904 Stelts & 842 Eaton> LOL

11/22/2009 8:54:31 PM

Midway, UT

Lol cojoe

11/22/2009 9:37:00 PM

In The Field

From what I see, it can best be summed up by saying, most giant pumpkin enthusiasts are growers not breeders...

11/23/2009 12:22:07 AM

Jericho Vermont

I have one of our seeds that we have been adding genetics to for the past 5 years. Last year we added the 1385 to it and this year we are hopefully putting more color back with the 772. To me this is a huge part of the joy of growing to see what crosses can do to a seed line. For those of us that do not grow world class for whatever reason, this is the cool and fun part of the hobby.

11/23/2009 6:27:21 AM

Eastern Washington State

SW the situation is not at all clear cut.

Yes there are some clear disadvantages to the current approach taken by the AG community, but given the constriants of patch sizes, it is a defendable approach. There's simply not enough room to plant large numbers of genetic populations. Also, weights continue to go up so who can argue with that?
In essence, the current practice boils down to what people have been doing for thousands of years, i.e. planting seed from the best fruits in the field. Not the most efficient strategy by modern breeding standards, but one that has been proven to work time and again.

IMOHO, Given the relatively small gene pool whe are looking at, there are probably a shocking number of 'unknown' seeds out there equal to (or better than) those known as 'the best'. Question is, which ones? Since most people only have room for a few vines, smart money still chooses 'proven' seed.

11/23/2009 4:12:40 PM

Covington, WA

I've been saying this for years, and practicing it as well. My heaviest pumpkins and squash have come from my own seeds and I have had the opportunity to grow seeds from pumpkins that have produced world class and world record fruit for other growers. This is the thought that had prompted my ealier post with the old genetics challenge. But every second year grower wants to put a 1385 Jutras in their patch. I can understand that, but personally I'd rather create a 1385 Jutras in my patch so that I'll have a whole pumpkin full of those seeds to plant and share. Hell, it's probably already been done a dozen times over but we'll never know it because those seeds haven't ever been tried.

11/23/2009 5:10:44 PM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

This is a great discussion for this time of year. One thing I've thought about, with many growers growing their best pumpkins from their own seeds, could this be because they pick out their most perfect looking seed to plant for themselves? Or could it be because they start multiple plants from their own seeds, and pick the best looking plant to go with? Just wondering if anyone noticed a correlation between seed size, and eventual pumpkin size. Or a correlation between early plant vigor, and eventual pumpkin size?

11/23/2009 6:03:30 PM

Sacramento, Ca

This web site has a lot of genetic information about c. maxima.

Cucurbit Genetics Cooperative
http://cuke.hort.ncsu.edu/cgc/index.html

11/23/2009 6:42:10 PM

I'll jump in here Doug, I have had relative success growing my own seeds the last 3 years. Yes I pick good looking seeds, yes I start multiple plants, I even plant multiple plants next to each other in the hoops and eventually cull to the most aggressive plant. Seed size important,,not really imo. I will always take a vigorous seedling over a whimp if I have the choice.

I also hold that working with crosses over a few generations one may be "climatizing" these strains. Others will say nayyy,,,but in my experience it holds true in other fields of agriculture. Why not with these freaks?

All of that stated I feel it is important to grow a percentage of your own crosses. If not, why even bother controlling your pollinations? Are you expecting others to grow the seeds you won't? 3 years in a row my second biggest fruit has been off my own seed, that could change anytime 8-)

11/23/2009 6:47:56 PM

Ohio

I'm definitely going to plant more of my own seeds this year, more then I have ever planted in the past.

I know I say this every year but when it comes down to culling 1 of the 2 plants I have planted I nearly always choose my own to be culled,,lol. Next year Im going to do something different, like Dan does so this wont happen, plant two of my own plants in the same planting area and then when it comes down to choosing which plant to cull I will still have my own seed planted to grow ,,lol.

I have done alot of great cross's just like alot of you growers have in the past that never give them a chance, its kinda stupid really, you take all that time finding a great seed to grow along with a pollinator and the seeds end up sitting in a seed jar. lol!

One plant I been wanting to grow for since 2006 is my 626 seed(1446 x 1260). I plant that seed every year , but every year it gets culled, but not this year though.

11/23/2009 7:32:29 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

I don't think there could be a better feeling than to grow a personal best from your own seed.I usually go with 4 plants every year and from now on i am planning on 3 of my own and 1 other.The way i look at it growing a world record here on CapeBreton island is pretty much impossible so i might as well have some fun playing with my own crosses.My 850 (664.5 liggett x 1287vankooten)is a cross i am very excited about.Both plants were monsters.

11/23/2009 9:05:20 PM

milford, CT,

Another plus on growing your own seed is you know more about the growth rates..internal structure..potential problems..etc.than anybody. I agree with what a lot of the above growers are saying..this is a statistical hobby where we are trying to improve our odds on finding a seed that is outside the normal deviation. I think the key is grow proven seeds because they have a track record..but if you make a cross and see what you are looking for why not give it a shot. The nice thing about growing your own seed is you have plenty of seeds to grow and maybe it will prove out?

11/23/2009 9:14:42 PM

Joliet, IL

purposely planting one of my own seeds for the first time. going with 2 1147s side by side and let the best one win one of my 3 spots. i have grown my own seeds as backups and got personal bests with them in the old days when needed to go to the back up. but this is the first intentional spot dedicated to one of my own seeds. i am excited about it too.

11/23/2009 9:16:58 PM

Brooklyn Corner, Nova Scotia

I agree with you Carl, your 850 looks like a wolf in sheep's clothing to me. Could you e-mail me Carl regarding our club's fundraiser. I know of a Connecticut club who had the vision to scoop up some 664 Liggetts before it became a hot seed ;o)

11/23/2009 9:30:49 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

No problem Andy.

11/23/2009 10:07:29 PM

Riverton, WY

The last few years I've been growing at least one of my seeds. 3 of the top 5 Wyoming pumpkins on the IGPA websites top 10 list have been grown off of my own seed. If split pumpkins are included, 5 of my top 7 pumpkins have been grown off of my own seed.

This year I plan to grow at least 1 of my 2009 crosses. It is a cross of my heaviest pumpkin which went 6% heavy x one of my seeds which went 15% heavy. It is the 909 Hoffman 09 (1180 Krug 07 x 344 Hoffman 05) Gut feeling here....might pan out....might not.

The foundation for this cross & others was obtaining a few proven or potentially good seeds from friends, clubs and/or accomplished growers. I think it is still important for me to seek out a few seeds that have the potential to get me the results I am after. I don't solicit every top grower I've heard of to get a few seeds to be used in future crosses. I'll just do some research and send out a few bubbles ... usually try to limit myself to 5 per year ... probably less this year. I hope the sharing spirit will still continue to some degree despite some of the frustration experienced by some of the top growers.

Now, maybe if I didn't live in Wyoming and/or would build a fancy greenhouse system, maybe I'd be one of those accomplished growers. lol

11/23/2009 10:14:25 PM

Ohio

I agree totally with growing your own. This was my first year and I a definitely growing mine next year. Because I only had one pumpkin this year, I don't have much choice but to go to other growers. My plan is to start three genetic lines that I keep somewhat separate. One line will be Orange, and two will be for size & weight.

11/23/2009 10:36:56 PM

Hot West Tennessee

I agree with John , I have only room for 3 plants. I feel I have to go with proven seeds , although I started with 5 front line seeds last year and lost them one way or another. Had to use backup crosses of same seeds. Hope to have better results next year. Until I grow a huge heavy sound pumpkin I will be starting proven seeds. If I expand I will experment with my own crosses.

11/23/2009 10:46:05 PM

Las Cruces NM

I started this thread because I saw a huge amout of people making what I call good crosses, and then not taking advantage of it. There are only so many seeds in an AG -- when they are gone, the line is gone. And if crosses don't hit dirt, that line is gone too! But what I see is many do plant their own. Ofcourse you have to start out with good genetics, and many to chose from, but once you have that, planting them and adding crosses, and back crossing, well I see people are doing that. And there were many other good points by thoes that don't as well -- I thanks all that posted as it helped clear my mind! Thanks!

11/24/2009 2:48:41 PM

Cortona Toscana Italy

i'm a newbie in growing a.g. but not a rookie in breeding
the problem on growing and breeding a.g. are us growner, probably if we can give to our pumpkins the same condition of growing everywere we can start work with modern breeding, but every soil is different and every growner have different way so the same seed can produce two different pumpkins(weight)in 2 different patch!
is obvius that starting with god genetic is important but i think that giving proper condition of grownt a lot of seeds have the possibility to grown real monster.
i think that if a growner produce a real monster with is seeds coming from a god cross not only need to plant again is seeds but is an inteligent tingh to share freely a part of the sseds around, in similar climatic condition to lok at the resultant ofspring!
of course a very interessant plants can be cloned to test some cross that can be impossible for distance
and again seeds can be largely tested on the ground!
i think that the sharing attitude of the a.g growner are the secret to the grown of the size of the fruit!

11/24/2009 5:32:26 PM

President - GPC

Nice Post Caronte! SO true.....

11/25/2009 8:54:15 AM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

5 out of 9 of the latest WR pumpkins were a grower growing his own seed. 2 of those 5 were grown the first year out (unproven).

This doesn't really prove anything, except to say that growing your own seems worth a try if you think you've got a good cross.

That said, I'm still on the fence about growing my own. If I do, I will certainly plant 10 or more seeds around one patch and cull to the most agressive.

11/26/2009 12:29:10 AM

Cameron,ontario Team Lunatic

We have been growing our own seeds for few years now. The final results this year were an amazing 1677.5, 19% heavy, a new PB & Canadian record. It was grown from our 901 Hunt which was 19% heavy as well. The 901 was grown from the 1093 Hunt which was 10%+ heavy. The 1093 Hunt is a 1068 Wallace x 842 Eaton cross.

Also I think Dan might be on to something when he says "I also hold that working with crosses over a few generations one may be "climatizing" these strains. Others will say nayyy,,,but in my experience it holds true in other fields of agriculture. Why not with these freaks?"

We had one of the coldest spring & summer temps that we can remember this season, yet we still managed to grow this 1677.5 monster pumpkin. Why, I don't know. Our pumpkin was 225# bigger than any other pumpkin grown in Canada & beat the Can record by 150#. The previous year we lost a monster (1269 est on Aug 31st) on that same seed, in the same plot of dirt. Could it be the great genetics, along with a plant that has been climatized to our weather & soil? Who knows for sure. I do know that we'll plant another 901 in the same plot & see if we can't get a 3-peat. Good luck with your own seeds next season.

Jane & Phil

11/27/2009 6:29:45 AM

Las Cruces NM

I'm a believer in acclimatization ... I'm counting on it as I'm growing in the Chihauhaun desert! We'll see! But if I can grow em here, they can be grown anywhere!

11/27/2009 12:06:20 PM