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In The Field

Who out there actually has a plan. Who is actually working that plan. How far along are you? Can any other growers out here help you in your efforts?
Criss-crossing is doing very little to truely advance our seeds potential. Sure we are selecting the heaviest fruit, thickest walls, otc, etc. But this isn't a plan, it's simply commen sense. A plan consists of working within the established plant breeding procedures. There is a science out there and it's not pushing "frappe" on the blender and crossing and crossing and crossing again.
I understand this is more of a sport and not a working genetics project, but hey, why not? There are enough people within this community who know what I'm talking about and still others who will support it. Why not work together on a couple genetic projects and actually see them through. If each of us plans on continuing growing for the next 5 years (or so), why not work a plan during those next 5 years or help the few growers out, who have in fact been working one. The application of science (+) effort put forth by many (x) a few years (=) results! Sure, that's a little simplified, but 1) it will work; and 2) it sure beats the hell out of the "blender mentality".
That's how I see it. Who I am and my credentials, be it as a grower or a professional, is unimportant. What is important is what do all of you think about this topic??

11/23/2009 11:58:05 PM

Long Island,New York

"" Who I am and my credentials, be it as a grower or a professional, is unimportant. ""...............

I disagree. You obviously don't believe enough in your own thoughts here to sign your name to them.

11/24/2009 5:49:28 AM

Lexington, Ky

I think it's a great idea! Well said.

Jamie

11/24/2009 12:13:53 PM

Minnesota

What exact plan are you intending on getting working.

11/24/2009 12:16:41 PM

In The Field

I believe you may be missing the point here LIpumpkin. No offense. I don't think it is important to attach a name to a thought provoking idea. If I did, some might be more persuaded to agree or disagree solely based on what my name may or may not mean to them.
The idea is what I believe is important. Now, how everyone responds/feels about the idea is up to them. Certainly not everyone is going to agree. I believe if they did, this idea would already be playing itself out in certain areas around the world. But, if enough do agree, several growers should be able to work together and make some definite advances. Again, just a thought. What does everyone else think?

11/24/2009 12:30:17 PM

Southeast Texas

sounds like giant jack to me

11/24/2009 12:42:20 PM

Southeast Texas

sounds like giant jack to me

11/24/2009 12:42:42 PM

Dover, DE

lol. . . . i agree paul

11/24/2009 1:18:03 PM

Colorado

Hetero-growers have been crossing the biggest with the biggest for years.The world records gone up from 1061 lbs in 1996 to 1725lbs in 2009.Thats steady progress compared to say giant watermelons or tomatoes.Its a formula thats been working because of the number of growers involved.My "plan" is to try to grow a personnal best in 2010 because its a fun and interesting hobby.

11/24/2009 1:52:45 PM

Las Cruces NM

Heteroic, not sure what you are getting at here? You may need to explain further? If you are talking biotechnology, maybe few here may have ventured into Genetic engineering (Nic maybe?) but gene splicing, recombinant DNA, establishing molecular markers, tissue cultures et. al. but none of this is cheap nor easy for the backyard gardener. AG is not a species so, pardon my expression, has unstable DNA to begin with. On the other hand, selective breading, what you call common sense, is acceptable and prevalent in agriculture as well as this community. So I agree with cojoe – proof is in the numbers!
I think your point is what are people here experimenting with? And perhaps you are a willing participant? If so I would keep it at that. Now I would actively participate in someone’s experiment or crosses if I thought it was worthwhile. Do you have a plan?

11/24/2009 2:01:46 PM

Eastern Washington State

cojoe and SWdesert have a very valid point.

I'll crib a bit from my post from the last thread since it seems to address this issue.
>Yes there are some clear disadvantages to the current approach taken by the AG community, but given the constriants of patch sizes, it is a defendable approach. There's simply not enough room to plant large numbers of genetic populations. Also, weights continue to go up so who can argue with that?
In essence, the current practice boils down to what people have been doing for thousands of years, i.e. planting seed from the best fruits in the field. Not the most efficient strategy by modern breeding standards, but one that has been proven to work time and again.

So it can be argued that what the AG community has is a meta-effort consisting of hundreds of growers selecting for fruit size.

11/24/2009 2:18:15 PM

Las Cruces NM

Brian, right-on! That was something I picked up from the last thread as well. There simply aren't any AG growers with the space nor the energy to plant the hundreds required. It is a community effort!

11/24/2009 2:38:37 PM

President - GPC

Cloning iZ where I think we are going next.....capturing that world record plant then crossing it. Just think....we could cross the creator of the 1725 with the top 3-4 improving upon the seed genetic selections...

11/24/2009 3:18:53 PM

milford, CT,

I don't know...if you made a 998 Pukos x 1450 Wallace cross....then a 1385 Jutras by 985 Werner cross...then planned on crossing the 2 seeds...would that constitute a plan??

11/24/2009 4:54:43 PM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

I agree with The Wiz. Cloning the best producing plants, and crossing them, seems like the most practical way to improve the potential wieghts of A.G.s.

11/24/2009 4:55:26 PM

Minnesota

I thought it was giant Jacl also.

11/24/2009 4:57:59 PM

Cortona Toscana Italy

i agree with dough but i add that after this first step other are needed like plant lots of the resultant seeds probably sibilling and select, cloning and after select, but in a regional way because wath are growing god in italy probably do poorly in north america and the opposit!

11/24/2009 5:36:06 PM

Joliet, IL

wiz,
got a question about cloning. how long can you keep a pumpkin clone going before it loses its ability to reproduce with the same power as the plant on its first natural coarse of reproduction? does time or the plants age have any affect on the pollen or females produced by a clone say 2 or 3 years old? does the clone know how old it is sounds silly to say, but i have read that mother plants in some circles of horticulture are only good so long of a period of time before you see diminished results in the actual clones vigor taken from the mother plant. is there a period or a window of time and years a clone will still have the magic punch that the origninal plant had. also does clone health affect pollination. is the pollen from an old cloned and recloned and recloned plant that is some what sickly the same pollen genetically and will produce the same results as the pollen from the orginal plant taken from? does that effect the dna in anyways? you would think not. but i tend to see more deformed females with less lobes on the small shooting tertiaries at the end of the season, and even the male flowers on these late shooting tertiaries seem to lack the vigor of the males and females mid summer. and late season terts are probably the soarce of the clones cuz secondary and main termination is usually done earlier on to maximize growth. just curious about these cloning experiments and am trying to learn more.

11/24/2009 5:40:30 PM

Somerset,Ky

Shazzy,

It will allways keep the same genetics. We kept the 1450
Wallace clone for three years. We opted not to keep it
this year. The plant was fine just wanted some new 1,450
Wallace blood. So we will plant a 1450 Wallace from seed
in 2010. The clone looked fine pumpkins it produce looked
just like the 1018 it grew in 2006

John Van Hook

11/24/2009 6:37:06 PM

Ohio

I hope Nic Welty reads this thread and chimes in, cause to me he is the professor when it comes to genetics. When the guy talks people listen.'EF HUTTON'lol! (Tremor is the other one in different category of pumpkin growing,lol)

I think your dog spot on there Wiz and it sounds like a plan Nic Welty is trying to do.

Im not much of a genetics Wiz but it just seems logical to cross big and heavy with big and heavy to see bigger results, its what we have been doing for years no matter if it was cris crossing or crossing and crossing again or not.

Id like to know your plan HETEROTIC, what is it that you think should be done so us growers aren't wasting our time breaking world records year after year? Id love to hear the better plan, Im really excited to hear about it.

11/24/2009 7:01:16 PM

Eastern Washington State

The genetic makeup of a clone will remain the same with a very low rate of mutation that occurs naturally in any growing plant.

In theory a clone should maintain its vigor for some time (years), and be capable of producing pumpkins equal to that of the original plant. (Case in point being fruit trees, all trees of a given variety are a clone.)

In practice, however, sometimes vigor gets lost, especially in an annual like pumpkins. (long-winded story follows): Back in graduate school my project involved the molecular genetic basis for pollination behavior in tobacco. We maintained clones of the various genotypes in the greenhouse. After 5 years of repeated sub-division, there was a marked decline in vigor as compared to their seedlings. It's possible that you might see this in pumpkins. I'd be interested to know. However worst case scenario the seed will be just fine, even if the parental clones got old.

So imho the guys with the ‘choose the best clones and intercross those’ approach are right on the money for an 'advanced' approach, although they don’t need a Ph.D. in Biochemistry to tell them that!

11/24/2009 7:21:39 PM

Mn

Shazzy,

I know in humans that there is a part of the chromosomes called a telomere(i think that is how you spell it). If i remeber correctly it shortens after repeated reproduction of cells...Thats why peple age. I can not remeber if the shortening of the telomneres is what causes us to get sysmptoms of increased age(grey hair, diminished health etc.) or if it is something in the DNA it self. This all relates to humans but it would be interesting to know if Plants have telomeres or not and whether or not they effect the health of the plant.

11/24/2009 7:56:09 PM

Las Cruces NM

Cuttings have been used for ages for propagation and some plants don't have seeds so that is how the reproduce. There can be a genetic mutation, my folks referd to it a a sport (sp), where the genes actually change, but I think that is rare and may be what Brian is refering too. Shoots are where the genes splits so it is young but old stock may have telomeres? Either way, I think there is plenty to learn from clones

11/24/2009 10:59:52 PM

Anchorage, Alaska

Telomeres do cause aging in established plants, but they are not a factor in cloning because a clone uses the developing portion of the plant. The apical meristem, or growing tip, is cut off and induced to form roots with a hormone.

The meristem is made up of undifferentiated cells, kind of like stem cells in animals. Its growth is indeterminate, so it will just keep on going as long as conditions are favorable.

Telomeres would be a factor in the aging of your pumpkin leaves, but they have a relatively low impact. I believe most of the aging we see in our AG plants is a result of radiation, chemical burn, pests, and disease.

11/24/2009 11:01:41 PM

Littleton, Colo

.......a long time "pioneer" grower once told me.." when growing pumpkins becomes not fun, that's when I'm done"...........

11/25/2009 12:12:07 AM

Western NY

There are a few "planned" operations going on or starting, some people just keep things quiet.

11/25/2009 8:10:44 AM

President - GPC

For me this is the next frontier...and even the way we clone, SWDesert...very interested in the root ball clone mister you talked about....if that works it would be easy to create mutiples...
Great Thread....

11/25/2009 8:51:09 AM

Las Cruces NM

I'll get er packed up for you wiz!

11/25/2009 4:30:19 PM

Eastern Washington State

SW

Yes that's what I was talking about. The horticulturalists see them from time to time in mass clone plantings like in orchards. I think the red pear color is derived from a sport mutation from a green one, or maybe it's the other way around. I think thats where they get dwarf confers from as well, somebody looks at a tree in the forest and it has this weird dwarf mutant branch on it....

Telomeres aren't likely to be a factor as Newman says.

Biz : this kind of discussion IS fun for sick pups like me!

11/25/2009 4:33:52 PM

Eastern Washington State

Alternative Strategy:

Here's a variation of classical plant breeding. It's not a new idea, but it is a solid strategy that is almost is good as saving clones from top plants, but is far easier for anyone implement without any special equipment. There's next to no chance this will be adopted, but I'll throw it out here anyway.

Self pollinate the most promising fruit. What this does is preserve the genetic complement of that plant. Now that seed might or might not grow as good as the parent, but the GENES that made the parent outstanding are still there in the progeny. The next year these plants are crossed with the self seed of your collaborators' best. The following year you can then set up a more controlled cross from good grandparents. This self-cross-self-cross strategy avoids the some of the randomness inherent in the crossing-only strategy currently employed, while still letting everyone do crosses (which are more fun anyways).

11/25/2009 4:55:46 PM

Eastern Washington State

Oops restated something in that last post that might cause confusion.

Alternative strategy in outline form:

Year 1: Self most promising plants
(this preserves the genetic makeup of that plant without being diluted by an unproven male that may or may not perform)

Year two: cross that selfed progeny with that of your friend/collaborators' best selfed seed. (This lets you do a more controlled pollination to combine the genetic makeup of two proven grandparental plants) If you don't believe in selfed seed, just grow these parental plants out in 50 square feet. The genes don't care.

Year three: Prove out the cross. (Due to increased parental homozygosity set up by the selfing, plants from this cross will be on average slightly more uniform than those from a 'crossed only' background.)

Brian

11/25/2009 5:06:47 PM

Pumpkintown, SC

Whaatt!? Self the most promising fruit? Are you crazy!?
This has been proven over and over to be the kiss of death if you ever want that seed to be proven out by anyone besides yourself. You'd better make that pact with your friend/collaborators in blood buddy, lol. BF

11/25/2009 6:22:16 PM

Cortona Toscana Italy

is a god idea, make some selfing give us some omozigosis that in the next generation of crossing with other god omozigosis probably can give us a strong eterozigosis that resolve in strong seedling/plants/and probably bigger fruit. but in a more long period wiewing this can give some weak seeds in the next generation were bad trait can pop up randomly in the progenie!
so i think that an interessant idea can be using the cloning way to have the rigt cross an after some sibilling cross, and have some line to interbred to add some caratteristic we want on our pumpkins! of course not only a a single cross can be made and this strategy can start in any growing season for every growners, anyway is just my vision of the game! because i have some breeding bases but not in a.g.,anyway the dayliles breeder have some fun using this strategy and similar ones
Emanuele
of course

11/25/2009 6:43:11 PM

Eastern Washington State

Snake Oil, The selfed seed itself isn't the goal, its purpose is to better set up for the cross. It's the crossed seed that would be the product that people would want to plant.

Oh, anybody out there want to give me a 'crappy' selfed 1725? anyone?

11/25/2009 7:36:07 PM

Pumpkintown, SC

Yeah, I got that. Trust me, homozygosity is not lost on me ;) Just trying for a little humor here.
On the serious side, why not take your example a little further: line breed both promising plants for about 4 years, then cross them? BF

11/25/2009 8:37:29 PM

Joliet, IL

thanks for all the responses to the cloning questions. i think it makes perfect sense to cross plants that you already know the results of instead of the other way around like we do in june and july. i had those above questions in the back of my mind and just wanted some input or clarity on the subject. i commend those mad scientists at work out there and love threads like this. a 1725 x 1678 clone has the big x big n crazy heavy potential that can lead to the 2000 pound mark. reading about nic welty's interest on that 30 percent plus pumpkin out west has me to believe a similar cross of big x big n heavy clones is already in the works.

for those wanting to try the selfing strategy brian discussed above, i will provide seeds to them from my 1147 shenoha 2008 (1041 mckie x self) that went 15.4% heavy. the only progeny from it was the 873 naylor 2009 grown on only half a plant from early entire patch disease and the pumpkin went 24% heavy.

a 1725 harp x 1147 shenoha is a monster selfed x a heavy selfed which hopefully would lead to a monster heavy producing cross. i do not care if the grower only grows the 1147 in the genetics patch on a smaller plant. making the 1725 x 1147 cross to grow the following year is the intention. make the cross and i will grow it in 2011.

11/26/2009 10:38:11 AM

Las Cruces NM

Biz, I think fun is a personal perspective. My fun is experimenting and when I get satisfied with the results of my experiments, I get board with it and move on to something else ... I guess you can say the fun it gone!

Brian, I really didn't think telomeres played a part in leaf ageing (senescence) as I was taught it was hormones/steroils. But in my wize old age, I seen more then enough change in prevailing thoughts and how new studies can change everyting.

Newman, I can relate to pre-senescence being stress caused ... fertilizer burn et. al. and had a chuckle on that as I'm sure we all have done that LOL!

Back to Brian, I know your alternative method has been used on perennials, to cross back to parent or possible grandparent ... I can't remember the *why* though, but am curious so I'm going to look it up. Anyway, in the case of perennials, the target parent (or grand parent) still exist. With AGs, the only way to do this is by clonning in successive years. AG is not species where the genes (or at least traits) are fixed -- one thig that makes it so interesting ... sometimes baffling ... more dificult ... and fun (ya Biz, even you have to agree that is fun LOL). I have said it many times, and it is worth repeating, there is ton's of information to be gained on AG's by cloning!!! I've been wondering if some the the AG's genes could be sex linked -- sex linked would throw a curve in how crosses are done ... cloning could help resolve that ... but there is so so so much more! I'm overly excited about cloning prospects!

11/26/2009 1:39:30 PM

Cortona Toscana Italy

me to!this tipe of cross is what i think can grown a real MONSTER!

11/26/2009 1:45:27 PM

Minnesota

Planting a 224Brouillard09 1128Beauchemin x 340Beauchemin.

11/26/2009 1:58:03 PM

Eastern Washington State

Snake Oil,
Yes that idea has merit but also has some drawbacks, namely we are back to the problem of not having large replicated trials to evaluate genetic lines. Like AG, corn is a monecious species that does very well using highly inbred lines that are crossed to produce hybrid seed. Just look at the acreage and money this approach commands will demonstrate the value of that approach. Unfortunately the pumpkin growing community does not have the resources that companies like Pioneer and Monsanto. That being said, I myself plan to inbreed more than a few generations. It's risky, but I'm going more for shape and color than for size.

SW,
Crossing back to the parent or parental cultivar is typically referred to as 'backcross breeding'. As opposed to 'forward breeding' it's used when you have a genotype/variety/line that is basically what you want to grow, but is lacking a key genetic trait or traits. These come from the parent used in the initial cross. Then the breeder backcrosses the traits back into the desired material, keeping progeny with the new traits and essentially recovering the recurrent parent with the addition of the new traits.

I think what you mean by sex-linked is something called genomic imprinting. Since AGs don't have sex chromosomes, the mechanism would be to activate/silence genes depending on which parent they were inherited from.

Brian

11/28/2009 7:51:48 PM

Bemidji Minnesota

There are all sorts of strategies being used by Giant Pumpkin Growers. The fact it, what is happening, IS working.

This is Super-Selection at work, or if you think about it, just natural selection at high speed. Nothing more.

We humans are selecting the plants to breed, but in a sense we are the animal favoring certain traits.

Weather selfed, and outcrossed, or selfed for X generations then crossed, or just crossed, crossed and crossed, we are still selecting the ones that give the best results to continue their genetic lines, and we are eliminating unwanted traits.

Sag lines (Dill rings), flat pumpkins, and flat vines are getting more rare, because we have overall done a good job at selecting not to continue the progeny of those having such traits. They still show up, but are getting less common.

While big round shapes, with even thicker sturdy walls are getting more common as they get continued.

There is enough variety of breeding being done, with sibbing, reverse crossing, selfing, and outcrossing to ensure plenty of good genes are kept in the gene pool, while giving us experiments to increase the target goal of bigger, thick, better shaped, and even better colored pumpkins.

With the big one being a nicely shaped 1725 Harp, and a 1662.5 Stelts which not only has good shape but great color too, something is being done very very right.

12/26/2009 2:47:43 PM