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British Columbia, Canada

After reading some of the grower Diaries about the 1225.4 Jutras, it left me to wonder if fruit from the 1225.4 often go light?
Also if you've grown a 1225.4 before, was it easy to maintain?

Thanks.
-Jordan.

12/27/2009 7:01:09 PM

Brooklyn Corner, Nova Scotia

I wouldn't sweat the going heavy or light. Do you like the seed and it's potential? If so then plant it and hope for the best. 998 Pukos was 5% under estimate, offspring did pretty well- the estimation table is accurate within oh let's say + or - 15% so it fell within expected perameters so it didn't go heavy or light. You shouldn't ignore % heavy but IMO it is way over rated.

12/27/2009 9:22:06 PM

Anchorage, Alaska

I agree with Andy. % heavy or light just describes how wrong the weight formula was for the shape of your pumpkin. There is no real benefit to % heavy other than wall thickness. Personally, I'd rather see a pumpkin with an enormous diameter and moderate wall thickness than one with very thick walls and a small diameter.

12/27/2009 11:18:47 PM

British Columbia, Canada

The 1225.4 is my favourite seed, so I'll obviously plant it in 2010.
Though these somethig that still questions me, the largest pumpkin off the 1225.4 Jutras is 1443 Palmer, when the second largest is 1173.5 Parks. Is there any reason why there might be a 250 pound space between these fruits, I'm guessing the 1443 must've gone rather heavy?

12/28/2009 12:32:46 AM

Rhode Island

its impossible to do but lets say you could give ten growers a seed that was identical in every way. shape-size-color-etc.

you would quite possibly still find some of the pumpkins grown were over chart, some under,some right on, etc.
reason---soil-weather-grower knowledge-etc.

the grower, their patch and methods have as much to do with results as the seed itself

12/28/2009 7:30:55 AM

canal winchester ohio

Pap's right, a certain seed may have the genetics to go + or - 5% or so but the remainder is the grower itself.

12/28/2009 10:26:48 AM

Coventry R.I.

I grew it in 06 ,,,,the plan was trouble free.

12/28/2009 1:01:08 PM

Roselle, IL GJGEM@sbcglobal.net

I grew it twice. 1066 & 914.Grows slightly heavy or near the charts. Trouble free plant, that produces nice tight female blossoms...

12/28/2009 3:17:30 PM

Joliet, IL

there is no doubt in my mind that a each seed has a genetic trait for wall thickness and heavier density flesh. i personally saw the 1159 richards on the scale. it went 13.3% light. you see the spitting image in the 1102 pukos grown off the 1159 seed that 11.8 % light. both pumpkins do not have irregular shapes to throw off the charts. they were just light for the same reasons, it genetic. evey seed from a pumpkin will not have the exact traits and heavy and light can be all over the place depending on each individual seed and the growers practices. 2 years ago i had a 15.4% heavy 1147 pounder grown next to a 954 1% light pumpkin. this year i had a 14% light 1173 pumpkin grown right next to a 7% heavy pumpkin 1125 pumpkin. all things were done exactly the same for all plants. a heavy %variance chance seed has better odds of producing a heavy pumpkin or right to the charts than the light % variance seed in my opinion. leonardo urena has been targeting some heavy genetic crosses and doing selective breeding based on heavy for some years now. when one of his pumpkins go light, you can bank on it being a genetic factor that caused it to do so im my opinion.

the 898 as a pollinator has been used so many times for a reason, and it ain't cuz of its pretty pumpkin genetics.

12/28/2009 8:21:33 PM

Brooklyn Corner, Nova Scotia

Here's my problem Shazzy, with all this emphasis on % heavy many, many potentially great seeds are blown off. I already mentioned the 998 Pukos that went 5% light and is now considered one of the best of all time, which to me demonstrates how overrated % heavy has become. How about the WR 1469 Checkon, second largest ever OTT,( correct me if I'm wrong) This seed commited the Cardinal sin of going 17.8% light even though the pollinator went 20% heavy. The only listed progeny over 1000 went almost 7% over. World Record and largest ever at the time and still under planted. It defies logic.

12/28/2009 10:31:57 PM

Joliet, IL

andy, i totally understand where you are coming from. but the proof is that there is a reason why cetain seeds are selected by top growers to be planted each year. there are only so many to choose from. by using logic, certain seeds will be grown and some will not based on all criteria out there. one of these factors in determining on which seed to not only grow, but also to use for crossing reasons is the higher chances it will go heavier rather than lighter. based on logic, a proven seed with percent heavier average variance of 10 pumpkins combined with a value of 10% heavy will be grown more than one with 1% light average if the grower has a choice with everything else being equal.

i agree that many huge ott pumpkins get the cold shoulder if they go light. they should still be planted because just the fact that they were light, doesn't mean that they are going to produce light. this is different than selecting between 2 proven seeds with 10 pumpkins grown and the average is the better indicator of future probabilities.

doc's monster this year should be planted and crossed with heavy. the strategy of taking a possible huge shelled pumpkin with a huge thickness pumpkin has been a strategy by many growers for years. do not over look an unproven light pumpkin that has the genetics in it to go 445 ott. that is a target pumpkin for the large shell. cross one of the (1041, 901, 898 or maybe the 1355) with the 1636. get a 445 ott size pumpkin to go to the charts and you are in the 1800s. read Jim Beauchemin's post on the following thread.

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/MsgBoard/ViewThread.asp?b=1&p=150447

12/29/2009 1:10:34 PM

Joliet, IL

cont.

i only have 3 spots. many growers do not have the luxury or size area to grow many plants. with one of my pumpkins going 14% light last year, i am concentrating on crosses that have not only produced heavy, but also have a past hierarchy of parents that consistently produced heavy. just trying to increase my odds and keep the eye on the prize. all it takes is growing one 400 plus ott pumpkin going 14% light and feeling that pain on wiegh off day to make you concentrate heavier genetics.

12/29/2009 1:11:02 PM

Joliet, IL

andy,
here is an example of what you are talking about and why some light pumpkins with big otts should be considered.

the 1528 starr that was grown off the 1350 starr was estimated at 1636 and went 7% light. but the pollinator of the 1528 was a 1041 pumpkin that was 11% heavy. also other 1350s usually produced way heavy. the 1528 could have been overlooked but it produced the 1462.5 starr and the 1444.5 presto.

now if i had to pick between the 2 because of lack of room and only so many choices, i would have to pick the 1462.5 over the 1444.5 because it went 14.5% heavy and was crossed with the 985 that produced an 18% heavy 1301 lb pumpkin. does that mean the 1444.5 should be overlooked. no. but based on percentages and odds, i would plant the 1462.5 over the 1444.5 based on the above criteria of heavy genetics on both sides now. the 1444.5 was crossed with a 1385 so it could also throw huge and it could also throw heavy to the charts pumpkins too. someone with more room should definately grow the 1444.5. but based on only having 3 plants, i again will choose the heavier genetics possibility with the 14% heavy pumpkin crossed with a plant that produced an 18% heavy pumpkin. when all things being equal in size, i like to play the odds. but playing the odds is just that. nothing is certain.

you are right in saying not to totally rely on heavy or light. if the only 1350 pumpkin progeny out there was the 1528 that went light, then the 1350 might not have been grown as many times. the reason why it was grown so many times though in my opinion was based on it producing massive pumpkins that also go way heavy to the chart in most cases.

its a double edge sword and you can see why it is debated on both sides.

12/29/2009 3:28:55 PM

Joliet, IL

correction. the only other proven 1350 of size in 2008 was quinn's 1234 that went 13.6 heavy. all the other 1350s that went heavy were grown in 2009.

12/29/2009 3:51:42 PM

Brooklyn Corner, Nova Scotia

Shazzy, you know your stuff.

12/29/2009 10:32:50 PM

Ontario, Canada.

I just hate unprovable topics like this. Being a rather good splitter and light grower I have a certain commitment to this topic that could be rather unique. Us sheep herders (Light Growers) get no respect...we are the Rodney Dangerfield growers of the world.

I have often watched as my fruit trundled up to the scale with all my fingers and toes crossed. Yet except for one occasion a few years ago I have been vanquished year after year.

Paps views on this are quite reasonable. While genetics plays a roll local hidden unidentified conditions hold more growers back then is understood. The nurture vs nature debate rages on and on and never will be settled.

Andy's & Jeff's point is very valid these large case size pumpkins should be given an equal stake at future prominence. They grow faster then anything else and yet they still often never find a home.

1/3/2010 8:44:05 AM