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Brooklyn Corner, Nova Scotia

Only a few years ago, selfing was a curse word, sibbed a more acceptable close cousin. As of late, especially last year, there has been more selfing/sibbing/crossbacks than ever. If no two pumpkin seeds are alike and no two pollen grains the same, then this pursuit is reasonable. Using this rationale, take the 1068 Wallace. Would selfing, sibbing and crossing back result in bigger gains. Recent data would say yes. Will this trend continue, depends on the results, from what I have seen this will continue to be the case. 1306 Jutras, 1507 Jutras and the ultimate 941 Eckhardt are examples of this trend. Introduce an unrelated male and who knows what will happen.

1/26/2010 9:35:21 PM

Western NY

from AGGC, unless I counted wrong:

61 selfed in 2009
58 selfed in 2008
71 selfed in 2007
80 selfed in 2006
101 selfed in 2005
107 selfed in 2004

Sibs have been very few, but slightly on the increase. Or perhaps not increasing at all as a percentage of the number of plants grown (I didn't go that far with the numbers)

As for the 1068 lines, I think they are up against some tough competition when compared to the numbers that the 1068 put up. The 1306 is the best contender of those you listed in my opinion.

1/28/2010 2:37:02 PM

Brooklyn Corner, Nova Scotia

I took it a step further and counted the sibbed pumpkins.
13 sib in 09, 14 in 08, 18 in 07, 9 in 06, 5 in 05, 6 in 04
which just proves that I don't know what I'm talking about, lol. Thanks Andy

1/28/2010 7:35:04 PM

El Paso TX.

Interesting - I wonder how many of those selfed are a result of growers with limited space not having any other choice though! (either only having a single plant or a small number with only males ready on the same vine as the Female at the right time)- which would also effect the number of sibs - since if you have limited space chances are slim you are growing 2 of the same seeds with all of the other options out there !

1/28/2010 8:11:41 PM

Mill Bay, British Columbia

Your right JD, that is what happened with my 919 Richards this year. The intent was to do a super orange cross with my buddies 904 Northrup....but alas...no flowers ready at pollination time....so selfed it was.

1/28/2010 9:45:39 PM

Ohio

LOL ANDY!,,,

I have a 985 Werner that I sibbed last year that I think will grow a monster for ya,,lol!

1/29/2010 6:24:38 AM

Rhode Island

im not one to self pollinate pumpkins because i believe you get the same genetics you started with.but on the other hand if thats all you have then go for it.

when you take into account that no two seeds from the same pumpkin give identical results? then i believe that sibbing can be a great way to reinforce the genetics already available and quite possibly make the offspring even better.

when i did the 1068 x 1068 sib in 2006 and produced the 1450 wallace ? in that particular case i feel we accomplished that.

the pumpkin itself was not a great producer of seeds which could be a direct result of sibbing?
but even in a small quantity of seeds the 1450 proved to be great producer and pollinator of over the chart big pumpkins.

then again who knows if it means anything. we are not in the science field.

1/29/2010 7:39:54 AM

Joliet, IL

i would think that even with selfing, you still have plenty of genetic variation possibilities in each seed produced from the self cross. evidence of this can be seen in looking at the family portrait produced by selfed seeds. look at the 735 pukos (846 x self) family progeny portrait. all sizes and colors and weights and shape. i think the idea is that if you have superior genetic target traits in a seed already, why not pull from the same superior gene pool within that plant and give yourself an increased odds chance that the cross will produce similar results, or even better results. in the case of the 1725, if that power pool of genetics matches up right, you now have 400 more chances in the seeds at reproducing the similar results. out of these 400 chances...some will hopefully have that same magic of the 1725, some will not, and hopefully a few will even have more power if things line up right. my take is that selfing just increases the odds of matching up great genes if all coming from the same pool that already proved successful. i am not in the horticultural science field, but from what internet research i have found, selfing does not weaken a line like human inbreeding. sibbing will somewhat accomplish the same results. hopefully both sibb plants produce on the top end so both sides have the power. with selfing like the 1725, you already know the one plant had the power, so odds are the plant vigor is in the male genes as well. as far as cloning, this should just narrow the gene pool even more and hopefully increase the odds that the males will produce pollen again and again with the vigor that produced the original desired trait.

1/29/2010 10:15:44 AM

Milky Way

Hi,

I self pollinated my 1566 Rodonis because no other male flower was open, but I think to self pollinate
a 1566 Rodonis is not to bad.

In case of my 941 Eckardt I had the Idea to bring crosses together where a lot of 1068 Wallace inside over some generations.
This year I will see how it does that cross.

1/29/2010 12:37:38 PM

Joliet, IL

another way to look at it is like this. think of crossing for orange color only instead of thinking about larger weight gain and size genetics. if you really wanted to isolate an orange trait, i would think that crossing a 993 x self will produce seeds with a very good chance at producing a nice orange pumpkin. if the 993 pumpkin was a nice shiney orange like the 993 should normally produce, the odds of that trait being present in the selfed seeds would be higher. if a particular 993 produced a very light yellow or whitish color instead of the normal bright orange, a selfed seed out of that pumpkin will have less chance, but still a chance at producing the orange traits in its seeds.

to further strengthen the odds of producing the desired trait, in this case orange, the key would be to grow seeds from a selfed 993 that had the dominant shiney orange characteristic and trait. if you selfed one of those selfed 993's with good color and your pumpkin ended up with the good color as well....bingo, you have further increased the odds of producing shiney orange (the desired trait) on a higher percentage odds basis. a selfed shiney orange 993 pumpkin that was selfed again in a similar shiney orange progeny is the ticket. the person that selfs a 1725 that also goes monster big say in the 1600s or higher will help isolate the trait and make it more consistant. then with the genetic variation that comes with evolution and breeding, some of those progeny will go smaller and some will have the power punch to go above the standard norm, which in this case would already be a monster, and lead to better giant genetics.

1/29/2010 3:39:56 PM

Joliet, IL

is anyone planning on selfing a 1725 this year? my crossing plans are set for 2010, but hopefully in 2011 my 1725 seed will sprout and give me a chance to self it and see what happens.

1/29/2010 3:57:29 PM

Joliet, IL

i have a fellow illinois grower who is going to try to self a 993 this year for genetic purposes. if it also ends up a nice shiney orange, maybe we can self it again in 2011. i am hoping to get a nice shiney orange dominant bunch of seeds to present to our weigh off sponsor to distribute to their friends in the pumpkin growing community incase some want to grow some Ags with nice color for retail sale possibilities.

1/29/2010 4:11:57 PM

Ohio

I have a 1385 Im going to cross into the 1725 if all goes well shazz, hopefully I can grow a biggie off both seeds that will make that cross more desirable to grow the following year.

But I sure would like to have a couple crumbs of pollen out of the 1725's clone to cross back into the 1725 Im growing.

Watch out for Nick Welty and some great cross's being done this year Shazz.
I think you will see alot of Welty seeds in alot of growers patches in 2011.

I like your theory though Shazz, it was a interesting read.

1/29/2010 5:34:30 PM

Eastern Washington State

Shazzy I agree with most of what you have said. This year I selfed a 993 Vincent McGill for the same reasons you outlined. Unfortunately it wasn't one of the orange ones so what can you do.

1/29/2010 8:52:26 PM

Joliet, IL

glad you enjoyed my longwinded genetic babble boz. and brian, i have read many of your genetic posts and its nice knowing something i say makes sense to someone else. sometimes i read my own posts and wonder. lol. no work due to cold temps for 2 days gave me too much time on my hands. but i love wrapping my mind around an idea and expressing it to the point i am satisfied all angles are covered. which leads to blah blah blah blah blah. lol. take my ideas for what they are worth...just ideas. brian, if my friends 993 that he selfs is a nice shiney orange one, i will send you as many seeds as you want to maybe have one of us self it again or both of us try to self it again to again increase the odds one of ours will have more of the desired orange trait and keep that going and share the seeds again.

1/30/2010 9:55:32 AM

Joliet, IL

oh, and i also agree boz that some 1725 clone pollen would be sweet. the cloning possibilities are amazing to try to get your brain wrapped around. and on paper it all sounds great, but needs to be proved out yet. it will be very cool to watch it all play out in patches over the coming years. i believe cloning will be the final step to get the most out of these freakish plants.

1/30/2010 10:19:48 AM

Antigonish,Nova Scotia,Canada

Keep going on this topic. There are lots of us out here "listening-in!" with keen interest. This thread was very informative.
Cheers,
Bill
P.S.
Don't know if you can get CBC tv where you live , Shazzy, but today is "Hockey Day in Canada"...great coverage all afternoon and night.... 3 NHL games but no "Hawks"...lol

1/30/2010 10:48:40 AM

Cortona Toscana Italy

Brooks you do wath i just dream to do! a 1725 seeds pollinated by the real 1725 pollen and putting the 1725 pollen on a 1385...if you have plenty of seeds next year give a try of your seeds is wath lots of people looking for real monster need to do!
and if all run smooth i hope to have the possibility to do it!
working on pumpkins genetic and cross but not for size i think that now is moment to apply the self/sib strategy because we grower have created enough genetic variety for size and after this we can refining the strain doing this: is wath we do for normal pumpkins; a cros or some cross growing the f1 and after this sowing more f2 is possible and after this mass select the resultant ofspring(we have realy mas select for size in this years) after this cros the best resultant plants is interessant but if you have some champions is best to work on this lines with sib and selfand the circle start again!

1/30/2010 2:20:37 PM